Wheels

Discussion in 'Observed Trials Discussion' started by B1105, Mar 23, 2004.

  1. B1105

    B1105 New Member

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    Hey there, I'm in the market for a new wheel and got a few questions. First off, I'm getting a King hub for the rear (non disc, im running v's) and a DX32. I will probably order the wheel through work and have QBP build it, but m first question is, what spokes should I use? I'm thinking 14g DTs but any specific one you guys recomend? Something that stays pretty true would be good, which is why I'm thinking the 14s.

    Secondly, will a DX32(38mm wide) work on a PX Zebdi Mk3 (Bill?)? I'm running like a 28mm or so rim and it looks ok, but I just wannna make sure a DX32 will work with v brakes.

    Thirdly, is the stainless steel freehub on the King a necesity and is it imperative you use King Cogs (I've heard other cogs dig into the freehub)?

    Fourthly, should I get an ISO disc hub or normal hub? I dont care about the extra weight, but if I run discs in the future? Or is that something I should worry about then?

    That should be about it, maybe ill think of more later.
    Thanks guys,


    Byron
     
  2. AndyT

    AndyT New Member

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    double butted, 14/15 are better than 14g.... The rim will work, barely- the vee's will be bowed out to hell. I use a king cog on steel driveshell, I've also used single cogs on it for over a year- eitherway is fine...just don't come on here whining about how you can't get your cog off- use a screw driver/hammer to pop it off.

    Get a normal hub. ISO has taller flanges however...No one should run discs in the future :)
     

  3. Elan

    Elan steve french

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    DT competition 14gs are a good solid spoke, cheap too. teh dx32 will fit in jsut about anything, although you miht have to play with the spacers on the brake pad.

    steel freehub is a must, dont even think about trying to use the aluminum one, i used mine for like 6 months and it almost had to cut my cogs off..aha

    i suggest the king classic, it is cheaper, and the build strengths arent really that different.
     
  4. Elan

    Elan steve french

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    damn, that was fast andrew.... i ran straight guage spokes which i think was smart because i am not that smooth, butted are nice. i am building my next wheel with triple butted though, hopefuly i will smooth out.
     
  5. AndyT

    AndyT New Member

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    fairy gear head wheel building people actually say that double butted spokes are stronger than straight guage. I don't remember why, they flex more but are supposed to build a stronger wheel.
     
  6. Elan

    Elan steve french

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    yea, so i hear... meh, wahtever, i honestly dont think that as a beginner, yo uwill notice any difference, but as you progress you might be happy you got hte butted spokes....
     
  7. durkie

    durkie Member

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    I'd go ahead and get butted spokes on the rear, but I think there are going to be a lot of spoke combinations you can run and be fine. i think i actually have 13/14s on the rear and it seems kind of overkill. i think that i could probably get away with 14/15s. i think brett on here runs 14s drive side, 14/15 non-drive and this particular combination is supposed to be very nice in terms of having equal spoke tensions on each side of the wheel.

    i do believe i've seen many a dx32 on the rear of a zebdi, so i don't think that will be a problem. i have always seen them with maguras on the back though, so i don't know if vees will make it harder.

    as far as the stainless iso disc, think of it this way: a king hub is a serious investment in longevity. it will most likely be with you for a long time, and so you'll want to anticipate things a bit down the road. personally, i don't plan on running rear discs anytime soon, but i went ahead and got the universal disc hub, just because the hub will probably last me to the point that rear discs become feasible. i'd just go ahead and get it now, and save the money of having to unlace your wheel and swap hub shells or buy a new hub, or whatever. just deal with it now and be happy.

    the steel freehub and king cogs aren't a necessity, but they will probably save you some cash down the road as well. with the steel freehub body alone, uncarriered cogs will still dig in, but not to the same extent. king cogs have a really wide base and all 9 freehub splines, so you've got a lot of protection against them digging in.
     
  8. Elan

    Elan steve french

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    ayte, king cogs arent a necessity, i use a combination of dura-ace and ultegra cogs without the carrier, and that shit digs in. steel cassette body all teh way...

    as for the hub body, it doesnt really matter, if you have hte money go ahead and get hte iso, but the classic isnt really a sacrifice in quality or anything if you dont have the $ or whatever for the ISO...meh
     
  9. smudge

    smudge Central Scrrrrrrrutinizer

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    fairy gear hear wheel building person here

    Double butted spokes build a longer lasting wheel because they stretch more than a straight guage spoke. Force is distributed more evenly over the length of the spoke whereas with a straight guage spoke, stress loads tend to be high at the elbow.

    I fail to see much of a reason to use a triple butted spoke, so I would advise that you don't waste your money on them.

    I build all my wheels (and recommend them for customers) with Wheelsmith XL-14 spokes - 14g at the ends and 17g in the middle. They're just a few grams heavier than a set of 32 titanium spokes and I've never had one fatigue related failure.

    Sean
     
  10. ascentrek

    ascentrek Original power yuppie

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    I just built a wheel with the King ISO 14/15 to a DX32. I sold my PX before this was built. The King ISO has more re-sale value if you ever decide to unload it (I doubt you will). I bought the ISO in case I needed to run the wheel on any other bike I have...

    The bigger flanges make the wheel stiffer and reduce hub windup. Steel, yeah, definitely. I've seen Steel cassettes that needed a hammer to take off the cassette. Don't have QBP build it... please. You'll get a horrible build (It may be straight, but for trials you need all spokes to be equal tension). I can quote a wheel build for you.
     
  11. ascentrek

    ascentrek Original power yuppie

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    Agreed. Triple butted spokes make your wheel stiff, but has a low ultimate point (The point in which the material won't bend back).

    I've never had good luck with Wheelsmith's Double butted spokes. Their process is shotty at best, and you'll get weak spokes. 17g? no. Not for trials. It allows the wheel to bend more. You need rigidity in trials wheels. Forget Ti, always. Ti Spokes are a joke, and you'll break them instantly in trials. Ti has a pathetic material property for elongation (snap). IMHO
     
  12. B1105

    B1105 New Member

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    So is the frame/rim clearance something I should worry about? I'm guessing not, but just making sure.
     
  13. AndyT

    AndyT New Member

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  14. uownme

    uownme get high and eat her

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    I run brass nipples and my wheel hasn't came untrue yet. I have no idea if the brass nipples helped that though...
     
  15. smudge

    smudge Central Scrrrrrrrutinizer

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    Please explain their shoddy process to me. In the 11 years I've been riding and 10 as a mechanic, I have yet to see a failed WS double butted spoke that has been caused by anything other than being cut (by a rock or such). Obviously, I'm missing something. Additionally, I've built hundreds of wheels and have generally found WS spokes to be more consistent in tolerance on the details that matter to me; such as thread count per spoke, while DT spokes have been inconsistent by up to a difference of 6 threads on occasion. My style of building wheels is to lace, then thread the nips until the nipple flats reach the last exposed thread and then I tension from there. If you have a consistent thread count, you can build much faster because you don’t spend a lot of time with the tensiometer.

    It is exactly the spoke elongation that makes for a longer lasting wheel. I defy anyone to come up with some quantifiable data to illustrate the difference in feel of a wheel built with 14g versus an “ultra butted” spoke such as the XL-14 or the DT revolutions (built to the same tension readings).

    Ti spokes are a joke, I agree. But I don’t know the alloy they’re using. The text always says “Ti MMC” which alludes to the use of some composite material…apparently one that is more brittle that commonly used Ti alloys.

    I think it was you who, a month or so ago, was writing that Ti has horrible elongation properties and was too brittle to use for a trials frame. I would tend to agree with you ONLY if you’re using CP Ti as your reference material. If you’re referencing commonly used alloys, which most ti builders use, I would go so far as to say that you’re dead wrong. I’m not going to take the time to search my references right now (I will if this turns into some silly argument) but I suggest you look into the writings of John Castellano and Keith Bontrager and see what they say about the elongation properties of titanium, specifically 3Al2.5V. You can start by going here: http://www.bontrager.com/keith/rants.asp?id=30&page=3

    Sean
     
  16. mikeschiavone

    mikeschiavone New Member

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    sean,

    please stop making me feel so dumb!
     
  17. Elan

    Elan steve french

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    [quote="smudge
    Ti spokes are a joke, I agree. But I don’t know the alloy they’re using. The text always says “Ti MMC” which alludes to the use of some composite material…apparently one that is more brittle that commonly used Ti alloys.Sean[/quote]

    Ti MMC means Titanium metal matrix composition....
     
  18. RomanC

    RomanC Well-Known Member

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    Koza Ti Mig mod which were ordered by Tim a while back (like 5 or more years ago) are pretty good and I don't think they broke. Also the ever famous Ti Seven frames from trials-online also were good for the job. So Ti alloys can be used to build trials frames. Its just pretty freaky expensive to do so.
     
  19. Elan

    Elan steve french

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    arent we talking about spokes...? meh, its all the same...
     
  20. smudge

    smudge Central Scrrrrrrrutinizer

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    Yes thank you. I know what the acronym means, I just don't know what they use to alloy with the spoke. An insight to the alloy would give us clues as to why the failure rate is high.