democracy is spreading and iraqis rejoice

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion and Debate' started by afrobot, Oct 15, 2004.

  1. afrobot

    afrobot Aluminum is for recycling

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  2. tomacropod

    tomacropod Rum Pig

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    is "probe" really the best word they could come up with for an enquiry into prison sexual abuses?

    poor taste, sorry.

    This situation in Abu Ghraib particularly gives me the shits, given that this sort of situation is something I've been fascinated in past incidences of.

    The most famous of course being Philip Zimbardo's famous Stanford Prison Experiment ( http://www.prisonexp.org/ ) which many have probably heard of, but was revolutionary in its day.

    The most striking incidence of this devastating psychological effect of roles and circumstance, in my opinion, is the strikingly brutal violence of the Judenrat in WW2 ghettos, an organisation set up by the nazis to monitor and control the jews in the ghettos, given that excessive Nazi presence in the ghettos incited violence and rebellion. The Judenrat was essentially a police force, originally bribed with extra rations to turn on their comrades and families but the mental roles many of the Jewish police officers obliged themselves to fill went so far as excessively sadistic and brutal behaviour, the common Jewish self-loathing projected onto other residents on the ghetto. Murders, random violence and everything else they could copy from the Nazis they did, even in the absence of Nazi guidance or instruction.

    Perhaps seems random but the extremely powerful forces that drive people to act out the roles that they have been assigned, even normal people chosen randomly from a group, can cause people to become disjointed to the point of absolute barbarism.

    This works BEST when the system (prison system, whatever with a power divide and the perception of moral superiority within powerful party) exists apart from any other form of authority. The "guards" in the prison experiment were given practically no guidance as to how to behave, and it was certainly not implied that they should be cruel or sadistic. The Judenrat police were given little guidance from the Nazis, who found them to be independently effective without such guidance.

    The US military has thousands of psychologists on its payroll and detailed knowledge of how to de-power the enemy as well as empowering their own troops. Abu Ghraib was set up as an information vacuum with the full knowledge that abuses would take place, one can only assume that this was completely intentional as controlling such abuse would not be difficult. The same thing happens in Guantanamo bay, again with full knowledge, but with less photos taken. I imagine it happens in any number of military and (to a lesser extent) civilian prisons. The "probe" is a croc and will go nowhere but picking off some nobodies, plausible deniability is presumably a large part of the reasoning behind such a system, where peons act independently and without guidance from superiors. The military denying responsibility or knowledge is a croc. There is nothing we can do and that sucks, the US military, it seems, acts out the fineries and details of its orders with no governmental input, so this sort of behaviour and mentality will go on until whatever president explicitly tells the military to stop it, and be reasonable and humane.

    As Tony Blair said "we came to Iraq to stop this sort of thing, not to perpetrate it". And yes, I do know what side he's on. He's less of an egomaniac than that GW however. Your government and those sympathetic to this shit will say "we do whatever's necessary to ensure our freedom" but hey, what do you think the Iraqi insurgents are doing? What do you think Al Qaeda is doing for that matter? Think it's fun sacrificing so many lives to a cause which gets blood on the hands of an ideally very peaceful religious group? Everyone's just trying to ensure their freedom, and their freedom of lifestyle, but how much of your freedom can you enjoy when you've made so many enemies doing it? It seems to me that Americans had a greater sense of freedom BEFORE the vietnam war and BEFORE the Iraqi invasion.

    - Joel
     

  3. afrobot

    afrobot Aluminum is for recycling

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    Thanks Joel, well said. Any comments from the peanut gallery?????

    The right is wrong and you will burn in hell for it. Just kidding. I like to get you
    fools riled up whenever I can.
     
  4. tomacropod

    tomacropod Rum Pig

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    the peanut gallery? I think the ignore lists stipulate that we're pretty much talking amongst ourselves here Afro.

    so how's the missus? I've got this rash that won't go away and I was wondering if she'd noticed anything similar...

    - Joel
     
  5. afrobot

    afrobot Aluminum is for recycling

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    Funny you ask! In all seriosness she is treating a rash, and the state has issued a restraining order against her because she got all crazy on coke and came after me with a knife!!! LOL! no really ,that happened!:eek3:


    At least she's a democrat? :dunno:

    Hows your rash??
     
  6. tomacropod

    tomacropod Rum Pig

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    sounds like I was right not to mix it with the coke, does a restraining order annul your vote? That would be a sensible piece of legislation given the political alignment of most restraining order awardees.

    What sort of knife? I've got a modified Furi I could mail to you for self-defence...oh shit you're in the land of the free...out the window with that idea...

    your shop sell/send CK ISO hubs and headsets to aus? what shipping?

    - Joel
     
  7. Blackstick

    Blackstick Well-Known Member

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    I can hear the crickets chirping here guys, I just hope people read it, because that was very nicely said Joel.
     
  8. afrobot

    afrobot Aluminum is for recycling

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    Perhaps people are getting quiet because they are either too selfish to be interested in politics, or they feel like nothing can be said that hasn't been said before.Though true ,that there are few original ideas left, If we vocalise the most true and important ones ,sooner or later someone will listen.
     
  9. sameer

    sameer Guest

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    There can be no such thing as "democracy" in a true Islamic country, or even a pure Christian or Jewish nation. Why? If the state acted solely upon the teaching of the religious faith in question there could only be one party, yes? Therefore eliminating the necessity of the "peoples' voice". This singular state, for Muslims, is know as the Islamic State (funnily enough). We used to have one for many decades until, after a century of plotting and planning, the West brought it down in April of 1924.

    The re-establishment of an Islamic State is the sole aim of "Al-Qaeda" and it's sister organisations. The Taliban was the closest thing we had to an Islamic State, except it leant drastically towards the extremist approach, and they became unnecessarily brutal, corrupt, blah blah...

    So you see, this is the reason why the West are hated by them. They are desperately trying to bring Western democracy and culture to places where it is not (and should not be) welcome. Unfortunately for Muslims, many of the middle-eastern people are either too poor or too corrupt to see the badside of what is being enclosed upon them daily... which is why you see many of the civilians cheering the Americans (and pulling statues down...). This, obviously, only irrates the Islamic groups more and is the driving force behind many of the attacks.

    Basically what I'm getting it is this. afrobat orginally posted about the benefits of going to war, using the ever-spreading of democracy as an example. An Egyptian named 'Kutb' saw the darker side of the so-called 'democracy' and how it can pollute peoples minds and lead to a corrupt nation (as it has). This ideology spread through many Muslims of the time, of whom many became affiliated with Islamic groups and fundamentalists, and with the financial support of a certain Osama... became known as Al-Qaeda (the base).

    So the question remains: is democracy really what the world needs? The vast majority would say yes, but remember the people who agree live under a democracy and so Kutb would argue that because of this they've been corrupted and brainwashed into thinking so.

    But anyway, it's just another endless arguement at the end of the day (you're fat, no you're fatter, no you're... etc etc.). I don't think anyone can REALLY say who's right and who's wrong. You can certainly believe who's actions are right and wrong, but not the former.

    Bottom line: the fact that democracy is prevailing isn't the best arguement to back the war.
     
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2004
  10. mikeschiavone

    mikeschiavone Active Member

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    its about time someone said that.
     
  11. afrobot

    afrobot Aluminum is for recycling

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    My original statement was in very much in sarcasm. The middle east does not want or need democracy.

    America is short on the concept enough as it is!