WTF is up with 116mm rear axle spacing?

[smudge]

I just got an email from Don Ferris (it wasn't sent directly to me, but to a builders email list) about this asking whether or not it's a flash in the pan. Did Koxx start this ridiculousness? What's the point? Why on earth would you want a narrow OLN dimension when your chainline is already way out to the drive side with FFW's? This seems like a small step backwards in frame design IMO.

[WhiteRavenKS]

i thought that it was a deng frame thing? when i firt read about it i had a pretty similar reaction only i just made a really loud and long fart noise with my mouth in disapproval.

[Dang!]

Aren't all current Mods 116MM?

[kobrakai]

i think smudge is talking about the 116 stock frames that are coming out of asia. and as far as i recall, it was deng that started it.

i'm pretty sure koxx uses 135mm for their horizontal dropout stock frames.

[Jason222]

My DOB is 116 and I don't mind it...so far so good. Don't have to worry about hitting anything.

[dannyboy]

u wouldnt hit anything if it was 135 (std size) and horizontal dropouts. Im with the others.. 116 for stock is a ridiculous idea forcing ppl to buy new hubs (deng mostly i assume) to fit the new frames.


hopefully its just a "flash in the pan"

[WhiteRavenKS]

My DOB is 116 and I don't mind it...so far so good. Don't have to worry about hitting anything.

did you ever worry before? :hsugh:

[smudge]

i thought that it was a deng frame thing? when i firt read about it i had a pretty similar reaction only i just made a really loud and long fart noise with my mouth in disapproval.

That's what I thought. I'm not really up on my knowledge of current trials anything and Don was asking if this is bullshit or there's going to be some demand for axle spacers.

IMO, other than bowing to customer demand, it's a sad thing that there are custom builders asking for 116mm dummy axles. I would think it would be better to let people know that 116mm rear spacing on a stock bike is STUPID. Not that I have an opinion or anything.

[Dang!]

What if your building a mod?
Personaly I built mine with 110 spacing.

[trauma100]

In China...






They are all laughing at us

[lucky13]

135 ss ftw? I don't want to give up my king, but man those uberwide koxx hubs look stout.

[JohnnyO]

The theory goes that a shorter axle is stronger. IMO if the bearings are set wide enough this will make bugger all difference.

[Matt]

I have a theory...

It's a total monty move.

[justtysen]

Why does any of this matter?! :ugh:

116 is just 110 + 3 + 3. Throw in snail tensioners and the 116mm frame is no different from a 110mm frame with any small builder's 'buy me' dropout design.

110mm hubs make sense for BMX and they make sense for mods. They aren't even that ridiculous for singlespeed stocks though I'd take the extra strength of 135mm over the extra clearance of the 116mm.

There is nothing proprietary in the design and 110mm hubs are widely available so I don't see the big deal.

If it is really causing that much trouble to a framebuilder may I suggest that he/she learn to build things...

[ONE EYE]

Isn't it true that with a 116 hub laced up to a 26 inch rim is not as strong as with a 135 hub laced the same?

Not straight on but from the side.

though I am probably talking out of my ass.

[justtysen]

Isn't it true that with a 116 hub laced up to a 26 inch rim is not as strong as with a 135 hub laced the same?

Not straight on but from the side.

though I am probably talking out of my ass.

Your ass speaks the truth. Provided that the flanges themselves are actually wider, the wheel becomes laterally stronger. However, a 135mm 9-speed wheel is not necessarily that much stronger because it pushes the right flange inward and generates uneven spoke tension. 135mm spacing originally came about because of the need to fit multiple gears on the rear hub.

[Bryan]

a 116mm hub will give a hub that is stiffer torsionally
as if anyone gave a quarter of a fuck

I don't notice my 135+tensioner+hanger really
exception being today when I broke my hanger.

[TTownJon]

http://observedtrials.net/vb/showthread.php?t=22326&highlight=Deng

the original thread.

[Cryo-Cube]

I have a theory...

It's a total monty move.

http://www.honkeykong.org/wp-content/uploads/2007/07/oh-yeah-fuck-your-theory.jpg

[egidio]

Its just a few mm in the rear. Its still just a bike.

[trauma100]

Its just a few mm in the rearIs that what you tell him

[Bryan]

:rofl:

[trialsin usa]

"I would think it would be better to let people know that 116mm rear spacing on a stock bike is STUPID." Sums it perfectly.

Outside the theoretical, 116 holds as many mechanical advantages as blue Monty Magura line.

[smudge]

"I would think it would be better to let people know that 116mm rear spacing on a stock bike is STUPID." Sums it perfectly.

Outside the theoretical, 116 holds as many mechanical advantages as blue Monty Magura line.

Good enough for me.

[mikeschiavone]

Wait, I thought the blue lines WERE better?! Shit.

Would the proliferation of track hubs also be a factor for staying with 116? Increased chainstay clearance, which would allow us to go back to a narrow(er) BB?

I'm curious to know if Deng just got a good deal on some track hubs and decided it'd be more cost beneficial for him to design a frame around the hubs?

[justtysen]

Would the proliferation of track hubs also be a factor for staying with 116?
Most track hubs are 120mm now, but the abundance of BMX hubs make this a valid point.

Increased chainstay clearance, which would allow us to go back to a narrow(er) BB?
Chainstay clearance is mostly an issue due to width needed to clear the tire itself. Chainstays are often narrower behind the tire. It's true that a narrower hub would allow for straighter chainstays but it wouldn't affect crank clearance.

I'm curious to know if Deng just got a good deal on some track hubs and decided it'd be more cost beneficial for him to design a frame around the hubs?
It would be more cost effective for Deng to limit the variation of his products, selling the same hubs for stock and mod. However, Deng offers so many needless variations of the same products I don't think that's his motivation.

[mikeschiavone]

Most track hubs are 120mm now, but the abundance of BMX hubs make this a valid point.


Chainstay clearance is mostly an issue due to width needed to clear the tire itself. Chainstays are often narrower behind the tire. It's true that a narrower hub would allow for straighter chainstays but it wouldn't affect crank clearance.


It would be more cost effective for Deng to limit the variation of his products, selling the same hubs for stock and mod. However, Deng offers so many needless variations of the same products I don't think that's his motivation.

So, Deng could make more money by converting all parts to the same standard?

Additionally, it would allow for increased chainstay AND seatstay clearance because the angle from the seat tube to the rear hub wouldn't be as wide. The increase in clearance WOULD allow for a slightly more 'reasonable' BB width.

I'm not at all saying it's a good idea. But, I'm curious to know why it's a bad idea?

[ONE EYE]

Can you really get a narrower BB with such a wide tire?

Where the cranks pass the chain stay is also where the tire needs to pass as well, therefore that point has to be wider.

Maybe?

[justtysen]

So, Deng could make more money by converting all parts to the same standard?
The less variation in product the more the production can be streamlined. Tooling doesn't have to be changed in between batches and fewer things have to be kept in stock. I don't know how much of a difference it would really make in this case.


I think some people are against the idea because they see it as just another crazy standard and don't see a clear advantage. Personally I don't think it's so bad. Consider all the other crazy ideas trials riders seem to go for.

[trialsin usa]

I think some people are against the idea because they see it as just another crazy standard and don't see a clear advantage.

Could not have put it much better myself.