Warm up?

[MultiRider]

Just thought I'd toss this out there for newbies to Colorado -- article on warming up your car:

"It's a winter morning ritual for many Coloradans: starting up a vehicle and letting it idle for 5 or 10 minutes to warm up the engine. Most of those drivers are unaware that this practice is not only unnecessary, but can actually damage a modern car. Unless your car was built before computer-driven systems (pre-1980s), it shouldn't be warmed up at all. Idling, especially in cold weather, causes partially combusted fuel residue to build up inside the engine. Over time, this buildup damages the car's cylinders and many other components, all while making the vehicle less fuel efficient."

It goes on to say that idling the engine wastes gas, harms the engine, does nothing for the transmission or other moving parts, and increases pollution. Max idling recommended is 1 minute for days below 0, >30 seconds for days above 0. Then put it in gear and start driving. Take it easy at first, but driving it is the best way to warm it up.

[xsv4crob]

Jim, just curious, what's the source?

[beastoftheeast]

i didnt know that...i guess im a newbie even though i have lived her my whole life. i didnt idle anyways but now i definitely wont...

[Keith Courage]

Hmmmm

[literocola]

Richard you got two of dem green thingee's.
Congrats on your promotion lol

[philth]

I get in my truck and mash it.....


Leave it in rear wheel drive so that I can drive side ways, 4tires 4 different tracks....I find taking a corner and having the back end step out wakes me up proper quick. Stops me thinking about the cold.

[literocola]

I find taking a corner and having the back end step out wakes me up proper quick.

Proper meaning just leaving your driveway? :coold:

[MultiRider]

I've read that sort of info in multiple sources (MotorTrend, etc), but the most recent one (from which I quoted above) is AAA. My mom is a AAA member and I was reading her EnCompass magazine.

The article went on to say that 10 seconds of idling uses more fuel than restarting the engine with fuel-injected motors (carburetors took more gas to start the car).

The article also talks about how the catalytic converter doesn't work until warmed up by driving, so the fumes from a cold car are particularly noxious. "Since newer cars do not need to be warmed up, many cities have passed anti-idling ordinances in an effort to lower unnecessary vehicle emissions - Denver, Aspen, and Colorado Springs among them."

Phil's approach will lead to higher employment in the auto repair industry when his pistons cold-sieze to the cylinder walls. But at least he won't be thinking about the cold!

[MultiRider]

FYI -- I get in and start the motor, then put on my seatbelt and sunglasses, put it in gear and drive away. Slowly! Fortunately, my street is downhill, so I can pretty much coast down the driveway and then coast down the street. Perfect way to warm it up gently.

[hopsalot]

I ride my bike to work everyday, what kind of idle time and warm up do you recommend?

[toyota200x]

It just seems really weird not to warm up a car. I would love to see webpage from a reliable source discussing this topic.

[Keith Courage]

Mark: I suggest idling around your abode until the last minute then just hammering all the way to work. Thats what I do. I don't even maintain my engine properly and its still running strong after 26 years.

:sarcasm:

Thanks Mike. :)

[Tanner]

I've forgotten what cars are.

[KeepRollin]

It just seems really weird not to warm up a car. I would love to see webpage from a reliable source discussing this topic.

Engines are optimised to operate driving down the road (2500-3500 rpm) and at operating temperature. When the car is cold the piston rings aren't correctly seated into the cylinders and you can get blowby and other not so good things. Driving it down the road allows the car to warm up faster and distribute the oil within the engine faster.

[dengenerate]

someone please point me towards a bit of text that discusses how fuel injection and computers compensate for pistons expanding faster than the cylinders. catalytics not warming fast enough is a catylitic problem, not an idling problem. google it and there are some interesting solutions that car manufacturers are testing/using. transmissions don't heat quickly under tight tolerances -> non-issue. this article was written by a CO hippie who probably has little to no car experience, besides having driven one a few times. probably the same person who lobbied for "anti-indling" laws.

[thebear]

someone please point me towards a bit of text that discusses how fuel injection and computers compensate for pistons expanding faster than the cylinders. catalytics not warming fast enough is a catylitic problem, not an idling problem. google it and there are some interesting solutions that car manufacturers are testing/using. transmissions don't heat quickly under tight tolerances -> non-issue. this article was written by a CO hippie who probably has little to no car experience, besides having driven one a few times. probably the same person who lobbied for "anti-indling" laws.

Fuel injection and computers dont compensate for the piston expanding faster than the cylinder. Expansion of the piston is taken into account when the bore is machined for a piston.
Catalytic convertors have a flash off temp at which they become effective. It does take longer for them to heat up at idle, which is why many computer controlled cars have a higher idle when the engine is cold.

I cant understand why they are saying it is more harmful for a newer car. Carburators have worse fuel atomization which would cause more carbon buildup and emissions. Most cars have heated O2 sensors which warm up in about 30 sec, and that would be one of the few differences between cold starting a new car and old.

You guys are right, it is just a bunch of CO hippies that dont want you to waste any gas.

Feel free to correct me if Im wrong, its been a long day. But at least my car was nice and warm this morning:greddy:

[Keith Courage]

Drive your car however you want, just keep it maintained.

/thread

[dengenerate]

Feel free to correct me if Im wrong, its

well actually... ...um, that's on the money.

does anyone warm their car to heat up the catylitic? i can make an argument that's it's better for the engine, but i still drive it cold, so that's not my motivation. i do it mostly to warm the cab while i'm letting the dog out. or to melt ice.

[MultiRider]

"American Automobile Association", aka AAA, is not a CO hippie organization. I suggest googling "car warm up". There are about a bazillion hits and, while I didn't check them all, they appear to all recommend short to no warm up. Some quote sources such as Pennzoil. Seriously, just try that google search and then read the paragraph or so on each hit.

Here's an example:
http://yarchive.net/car/warmup.html
Newsgroups: rec.autos.techSubject: Re: Cold Weather Rec. & General Car care (http://groups.google.com/groups?as_ugroup=rec.autos.tech&as_uauthors=Dave+Williams&as_usubject=general+weather+care&as_drrb=b&as_mind=7&as_minm=2&as_miny=1994&as_maxd=9&as_maxm=2&as_maxy=1994)
From: dave.williams@chaos.lrk.ar.us (Dave Williams)
Date: 8 Feb 94 15:21:00 GMT
-> Let it warm up first? That is against all the advice I've ever heard. Wait till you have adequate oil pressure, then baby it (i.e.,-> keep the revs down) until it is warm, but by all means, do NOT delay the warming up process by letting the engine idle till warm. If you keep the revs down, you are not really loading the engine, and you're saving gas too.

I have an "Ask Pennzoil" sheet where someone asked them about coldstarting. The Pennzoil tech said that, unless the owner's manual specificially states otherwise, start the car, wait a few seconds for the oil pressure to come up, and drive off, but not to dog on the car until the water temp came up. Being a typically impatient American, that's how I drive anyway, but I was gratified to see Pennzoil thought it was OK too.

From: cbm@athena.mit.edu (Charles Bruce Musgrave)Newsgroups: rec.autos.drivingSubject: Re: Idling: Is too much bad? (http://groups.google.com/groups?as_ugroup=rec.autos.driving&as_uauthors=Charles+Bruce+Musgrave&as_usubject=idling+much+bad&as_drrb=b&as_mind=5&as_minm=2&as_miny=1996&as_maxd=7&as_maxm=2&as_maxy=1996)
Date: 6 Feb 1996 16:05:57 GMT
Yes. Too much idling is bad. Especially if the car is cold to start with. The longer it takes the car to warm up above the vapor point for the combustion byproducts, the largerthe amount of particulate formation and growth. This leadsto sludge, varnish and particulates in your oil. In addition to the wear these types of particles cause, you also end up needing to change your engine oil more frequently because theseget you to your oil's particulate threshold faster.The same principle leads to the increased acids in the engineoil, except that when acids are not boiled off promptly (because you idled your car to warm rather than driving itmoderately to warm it quicker) you get corrosion of the engine metals. In addition to long idles to warm up, you can get the same deleterious effects by taking lots of short trips. Since ittakes time above the byproduct boiling point to boil offall the byproducts short trips, say under 8-15 miles, especiallyin stop and go driving leave a lot of gunk behind.If you can get your hands on an engine prewarmer (they should be pretty common up there) it is well worth it.Charles

[xsv4crob]

I certainly agree that idiling a car for 5 - 10 minutes to bring it all the way up to normal operating temprature is absolutely unnecessary, bordering on moronic. People tend to over do it when warming up their car. But hey, it's cold outside (boo hoo hoo) and a lot of people have to have their car all nice and toasty warm when they get in it.

Basically, start it, give it a minute or two and then be nice to it for the first couple minutes of driving. Most importantly, never rev the hell out of the engine right after starting when it's really cold (especially if its a diesel) to warm it up.

[literocola]

Drive your car however you want, just keep it maintained.

/thread

Just buy a bus pass and let them take care of those hogs

Plus a trip down Colfax on the 15 is always a classic experience full of fun. Watchin all them crazy folk

[Keith Courage]

Vomit Comet.

[TotallyBrian]

yeah i live in colorado and have to leave my house by 5:15am. i drive a carb'ed 1987 chevy caprice and forget your mommies magazines, it runs like hell if i dont let it warm up! it'll stutter, shift hard and even stall if i'm running late and dont let it do its thing. i dont care what your mag says i know from experience, warm it up!!! maybe your hippie rig vw is okay to go but you are an idiot.
love brian.:coold::coold:

[Keith Courage]

Jim's not a hippie, doesn't drive a VW, and most certainly is not an idiot.

Thanks.

[Cross]

i drive a 2000 pontiac, and if I dont let it warm up for at least a min or 2, it drives like crap, the engine idles really high and is very loud.

Computers or not, you should let that cold oil circulate through your engine BEFORE revving it up, its not going to be there the instant you start your car, period.

[literocola]

Jim's not a hippie, doesn't drive a VW, and most certainly is not an idiot.

Thanks.

+1

Jim's perhaps one of the best people around. There isnt many people like Jim out there.

[xsv4crob]

Jim's not a hippie, doesn't drive a VW, and most certainly is not an idiot.

Thanks.

+2

yeah i live in colorado and have to leave my house by 5:15am. i drive a carb'ed 1987 chevy caprice and forget your mommies magazines, it runs like hell if i dont let it warm up! it'll stutter, shift hard and even stall if i'm running late and dont let it do its thing. i dont care what your mag says i know from experience, warm it up!!! maybe your hippie rig vw is okay to go but you are an idiot.
love brian.:coold::coold:

You have painted a good picture of yourself here. Feel free to attempt to make your point but please refrain from the name calling. If you ever get to meet or ride with Jim, you'll probably opt to eat your words.

[TotallyBrian]

my apologies to anyone offended by my post. I was using "hippie" as an adjective to describe the vw, and not the driver. if that was unclear i'm sorry. if your car isnt a vw, then again, how silly of me. but anyone who read the original post and is sane may have had a similar thought as me: wow this dude's nuts, and where did this "green" logic come from, certainly not experience. I am not here to bash on jim, just his nonsense post. keep riding and stay...
:bigthumb: cool man

[thebear]

my apologies to anyone offended by my post. I was using "hippie" as an adjective to describe the vw, and not the driver. if that was unclear i'm sorry. if your car isnt a vw, then again, how silly of me. but anyone who read the original post and is sane may have had a similar thought as me: wow this dude's nuts, and where did this "green" logic come from, certainly not experience. I am not here to bash on jim, just his nonsense post. keep riding and stay...
:bigthumb: cool man

So what is your experience? Is it your car that doesnt like to run when cold?

What was written in the article is true. It has nothing to do with "green" logic. But the article always states idling. New cars have high idle settings when cold to help prevent things like decreased combustion due to cold cyl. walls. Saying that you need to start the car and drive within a minute is assinine anyways. You will spend almost that much time sitting at the first stoplight you hit.

This discussion can go back and forth all day. Idling doesnt give proper oil circulation to the top of the motor. High clearances due to cold parts more quickly causes damage to the components when load is applied. On and on. Most of the auto manufacturers are smart enough now to understand that most people will warm up their car if they want a warm car and take some steps to help minimize possible damage.

[MultiRider]

Okay, well, whatever, I was just trying to spread a little knowledge. You know, to those that may not know everything already.

I'm frequently surprised at how willing some on this site are to lash out at people they've never met and do not know. Wow.

I appreciate the moral support from those who have actually met me -- thanks Richard, Mike, Rob.

Peace!

:bigthumb:

[thebear]

Okay, well, whatever, I was just trying to spread a little knowledge. You know, to those that may not know everything already.

I'm frequently surprised at how willing some on this site are to lash out at people they've never met and do not know. Wow.



Since Im sure this is directed at me, I felt I was just having a discussion. I did no name calling, bashing, etc. I only resoponded to the article that was posted and offered more info for those that might want to know more.


Kevin

[dengenerate]

we got our first snow out here and i warmed my truck up for a good 10min this morning. mmmmm warm cab and no scraping.

[MultiRider]

Since Im sure this is directed at me, I felt I was just having a discussion. I did no name calling, bashing, etc. I only resoponded to the article that was posted and offered more info for those that might want to know more.


Kevin
Um . . . no. As you pointed out, you did no name calling or bashing, just offered info. Not sure why you thought it was directed at you.

The real deal is that I was surprised that T-Brian was calling someone he's never met an "idiot". Particularly in a post on the Internet. Just seemed a little harsh.

So . . . sorry you thought my reply was directed at you. It wasn't. Honestly, it appeared to me that you are arguing for both sides of the warm-up issue and I'm not clear on what you recommend. So I certainly didn't take offense at your post.

I got out the owners manual for my VW van . . . . er . . . Toyota pickup truck and found the guidance on starting the engine: "Engine should be warmed up by driving, not by idling. Excessive idling may harm the engine. For warming up, drive smoothly until engine temperature is within normal range."

That's consistent with everything I've read for the past 10 years or more. But it's not consistent with what I see many people do each winter. I see many cars being warmed up for 5, 10, or more minutes. Waste of gas, not good for the engine, not good for the environment. << peace, man! >>

Of course, if your car won't run without warming it up for 2 minutes or 3 minutes or whatever, it's best not to get out on the road and risk an accident if it stalls. So do what works for your vehicle. Maybe your car is telling you "Let's move to Florida" ??

As for me, I will continue to start mine up, let things settle, turn on the heated seats, and drive away within a minute or so. And I'll keep an eye out for Phil raging down the road! An anonymous person sent me this video of Phil and his neighbor warming up their cars by running them down the road: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ntDMYof7BkU

[Bryan]

calling someone he's never met an "idiot". Particularly in a post on the Internet
:rofl:
as per the topic of the thread: garage?

[eturt9]

When its -20 outside, I warm the car up for me, not the car. If it even starts.

[KeepRollin]

:rofl:
as per the topic of the thread: garage?

Garages are fancy.... heated Garagres now you're just crazy

[TotallyBrian]

The real deal is that I was surprised that T-Brian was calling someone he's never met an "idiot". Particularly in a post on the Internet. Just seemed a little harsh.

im sorry im a terrible person. i blame it on my enviroment. i blame it on my family. i blame it on my older car that doesnt run like yours. but i never should have blamed it on jim. so sorry. so lets just drop it. this post is over. it snowy and shitty outside, no biking. dirve to work. and do the hell whatever you want cause ITS YOUR CAR! a million appologies for hurt feelings, and sensitive men.

[xsv4crob]

so lets just drop it. this post is over.

:werd: Good call, man.

[literocola]

a million appologies for hurt feelings, and sensitive men.

LOL.

Yeah, I'll be the 1st to say that this forum cant be takin seriously. I dont really care what people say. People talk so much shit its ludicris. Be funny to see how some of them "hardcore online folk" really are in person.

[xsv4crob]

LOL.

Be funny to see how some of them "hardcore online folk" really are in person.

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: I remember one in particular...........:wavey:

[literocola]

I ride my bike to work everyday, what kind of idle time and warm up do you recommend?

Here ya go Mark- Since the snow has hit and I commute as well, I remembered an old courier trick using left over beer cases. Ghetto Fenders FTW.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2110/2101388405_53d2ba9893.jpg

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2279/2102169524_59855eff47.jpg

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2166/2101390013_cab358e1b8.jpg

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2057/2102171062_76caac819f.jpg

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: I remember one in particular...........:wavey:

Those were the days- now put your fucking knife away before you hurt someone!

[MultiRider]

Mike -- That isn't really your bike is it? I haven't seen that one. Wouldn't a front fender be good, too? Or do you just wheelie all the way to work?

I've been practicing in my back yard. Shoveled the snow off the flagstone, put out my wooden obstacles, developing MAD skillz!

And I got a power meter for my road bike. It is so cool! Lots of graphs -- an analyst's dream! Or obsession . . . my Threshold Power appears to be about 260 watts, max power about 800 watts. According to the chart in the "Training With A Power Meter" book that I have, that puts me solidly in the middle of Cat 4 road racer. Lots of room for improvement, for sure. But at least I escaped the "Untrained/Non-Racer" category.

I really enjoy analyzing data. And the power meter gives an avalanche of data -- graphs of power, speed, slope, wind, temperature, HR, cadence, etc. Cool stuff.

And relevant to the topic -- very important to warm up, not just hammer immediately. At least once you get over about age 30. :run:

[literocola]

I would really like a power meter. That contraption is so nifty. I have no idea how many watts I produce.

My power is way low since I really havnt been riding XC latly. I went out and rode yesterday and cant believe how weak I've gotten. I know the root, sitting around drinking and smoking; not good.

I've decided to work 2 full time jobs over the winter to get myself motivated and busy.

I need to make a front fender, I am going to put one on here in a few. With even more snow fall I want to go ride a 20+ mile ride today in the crazy snow. I love riding in this type of conditions, I think this is where I really shine. And the average joe in a car thinking "what the heck is this crazy bastard doing!??!?!"

I better get moving on, I have a lot of things I have to take care of today. All me and my Cake.

I cant belive you havent seen my XC rig Jim! She was a freebee from Alpha Bicycle Co. I love it, but I want to trade frames for another hardtail. Or your Yeti lol.

[Keith Courage]

I don't have the internet anymore.

Someone call me if we ride or some other bike oriented gathering occurs.

[hopsalot]

Mike, I only drink bottels in six pack form, please help with fender options.

Damm it's cold out.

[xsv4crob]

I don't have the internet anymore.

Someone call me if we ride or some other bike oriented gathering occurs.

What, they changed the password?

Take that hunk of garbage laptop (of mine) and walk down a couple blocks to McDonalds. If I'm not mistaken, every McDs has access now.

[hopsalot]

What, they changed the password?

Take that hunk of garbage laptop (of mine) and walk down a couple blocks to McDonalds. If I'm not mistaken, every McDs has access now.

Surfing porn in a MickyD's is probably frouned apon.

[xsv4crob]

Surfing porn in a MickyD's is probably frouned apon.

Only if you're :wuteva:

[literocola]

bumppers.

[literocola]

job bagged. Not 2 full time positions. But working 1 full time, 1 part.
No more free time for me, which I want. Im tired of being lazy.

now how am I going to keep making these fenders!?!?!?

[literocola]

Surfing porn in a MickyD's is probably frouned apon.

Not off Colfax :bowrofl:

[MultiRider]

Yo, let's keep it out of the gutter! Wowsa, I take a day or two off from OTN and things devolve!

Hey, Mr. Motivation, what are the two jobs? Papas and ?? I knew you had the Cake, forgot, and haven't seen it before. Good to hear you thrive on snowy conditions, looks like they will be with us for a while.

I'm hoping to xc on Saturday morning. I've ridden the exercycle in the basement a couple times and it is definitely not as fun as a real bike. Though I did watch "Trials Is Dead" on one ride and that is a seriously cool DVD. The better I get, the more impressed I am with the riding I see. Some of the skinnies and surges and multi-moves just blow my mind. Currently "skinny" for me is about 3' wide! Sun is out and snow is melting, so maybe I can get on my real bike again soon.

Coolest thing about the exercycle is that it displays watts, so I'm kind of getting a feel for what 150, 200, 250, 300, etc watts is like. More fun on a real bike, of course, but I'm thinking the road bike will stay in the garage for a while. Snow and ice, then sand and gravel after the melting. Bummer for road riding. Maybe I will road ride the Yeti.

I got my Yess tensioner on and it rocks! Very nice unit. The "full suspension" roller is not adjustable side-to-side, so I had to use washers and a bolt from Home Depot to get my chain line right. Kind of ghetto looking. But it keeps the chain tight and I've had no problems with it. Excellent spring.

We're almost to the shortest day of the year, so soon we'll be on our way back to more daylight. That will be nice.

[literocola]

I am working back in Hotel business. I start tomorrow morning at 8. I am going to keep serving for the extra monies. I really need a truck next year. So, in theory, keeping myself really busy should help.

Also, Alpha Bicycle Co. Has a few copies of Trials is Dead in stock. So you wont have to order on-line.

Saturday I am down to ride some XC but I dont know if I will be working that morning, I know I am working that evening at 5.

I've also been playing around with a track bike idea. I am prolly going to pick one up here soon so I can really work on endurance and pure leg power. Perhaps take it to the springs and play around on the Velodrome. I've always wanted to do that. My neighbor has one sitting in the garage collecting dust, so I am going to talk to them and see if they would like it off their hands. If not, then Alpha has a KHS Solo 1 sitting around and they would dump that off to me for cheap, since its been in the shop for ages.

Better go get myself ready for work.