Quick question about rear wheel alignment

[westcoaststyles]

So as some of you know I've been having a lot of trouble with my bike. 07 GU mod.

I ordered some threshold tensioners that should be here monday. HURRAY!

When I put the snail cams on their loosest setting and unbolt the wheel and push it forward, so it's as far into the dropouts as possible, the rim pushes against the left brake pad. Is this normal, or could something be bent? It's been like this since I got the bike. When I tighten the wheel i have to tighten the right-side snail cam and leave the left one pretty loose to get the rim inbetween my pads. I can barely ride a block before the wheel becomes loose, haha.

Hopefully the threshold tensioners will fix my problem.

[Oskar]

adjust the brake maybe??!

[westcoaststyles]

Nope, both sides of the brake are out the same amount.

[eturt9]

maybe the dropouts aren't perfectly even.
maybe your wheel is out of dish.
Maybe your maggie mounts are slightly off.

Still, just adjust the brakes probably. you shouldn't be setting them up just so they are sticking out the same amount, you want them set up so they're even to the rim.

[westcoaststyles]

maybe the dropouts aren't perfectly even.
maybe your wheel is out of dish.
Maybe your maggie mounts are slightly off.

Any tests I could do to find out what the problem? Sorry guys I am just so lost and frustrated. I just spent $1,500 on a trials bike that I can't get running.

[eturt9]

Take it into a shop and have them look at it if you can't figure it out

[westcoaststyles]

So after much experimentation I am pretty sure the axel thing in the wheel is bent.

When I flip the wheel around the brake pad on the otherside touches. At least it's not the frame right? haha

I still don't know how this happen? Any clues?

[Bryan]

I am 75% sure that your wheel is just off dish.

[Acolyte]

So after much experimentation I am pretty sure the axel thing in the wheel is bent.

When I flip the wheel around the brake pad on the otherside touches. At least it's not the frame right? haha

I still don't know how this happen? Any clues?


If you flip your wheel and have exactly the same symptom, but reversed, it's your wheel being out of dish.

Also, some Echo hubs(esp stock, non-drive side) have one axle end where the axle bolt is offset a little to have more contact within the dropouts. Something to check...

[westcoaststyles]

Is there a way to put my wheel back into dish?

Also, if it isn't the dish thing how would I know if I have a special hub?

[Acolyte]

Is there a way to put my wheel back into dish?

Also, if it isn't the dish thing how would I know if I have a special hub?

Worry about the hub later.

To redish your wheel, loosen all the spokes on one side 1/4-1/2 turn, then tighten the other side 1/4-1/2 turn.

Make sure you turn them all the same amount, and do them in smaller increments. If I understand your wheel correctly, loosen the non-drive spokes 1/2 turn each, then tighten all drive spokes 1/2 turn each. Repeat until it's centered(with perhaps 1/4 turns for fine tuning).

[spoke2570]

If you are not so good with wheels, take it to the shop and have them dish the wheel. It is a pretty inexpensive repair.

[afrobot]

if dish is not the issue consider finding an alingment table to check the frame.A framebuilder could also throw it on a jig and check. If it is the frame you can dish your wheel to compensate. However
making it go further right will weaken your wheel if you have a cassette hub. If you have a SS hub
just have the shop move it over.

[Rodmunch]

My Pure's rear triangle is out of alignment, so I had to dish the wheel out toward the drive side just a smidge, about 1/8". It's held up pretty well so far.

[johnglazer]

Is it off center enough that you can't adjust the brakes to not rub? My wheel is off center, but I just slide the brakes over so that they don't rub. If your tire isn't rubbing against the frame, you should be able to adjust the brakes enough to fix it.

can you post some pictures?

[Rodmunch]

My tire rubbed the frame before I changed the dish. There's hardly any clearance.

[westcoaststyles]

Ok so here's some pictures; sorry for the wait.

Remember that the bike is flipped upside down. Both calipers are out the farthest they can be, so please don't say that I should just try to adjust them, haha.

This is what it looks like pushed all the way forward in the dropouts the right way right round.
http://img339.imageshack.us/img339/4083/1001793copymy6.jpg

Than the other way round.
http://img339.imageshack.us/img339/2381/1001796copyel8.jpg

So it's pretty safe to say that the wheel is out of dish right?

Also, I just got some threshold tensioners in the mail. I thought they were supposed to fit where the snail cams went but the whole is too small for my axel, so the only way I can put them on is like so. Is this ok to run them like this or is there not enough bolt going into the wheel?
http://img261.imageshack.us/img261/7066/1001792mediumbt5.jpg

[jaimer]

It is ok to run the tensioners on the outside, some frames they work on the outside others on the inside. I'm not sure why but someone else may be able to shed some light on that.

[westcoaststyles]

Would the bolts still be long enough though? That's what I am really worried about.

[Yurich]

Your brakes are set up terribly

[westcoaststyles]

Yeah from much frustration trying to get the wheel working. The brakes I can fix right now. The wheel I cannot.

[spoke2570]

A: Take the wheel to the shop and have them slap a dishing tool on it. It will take about 5 sec. and you will know if the weel is dished, or not. If not, get it dished.

B: See if the frame is aligned. Pull the wheel and anything else that will get in the way of the following. Run a string from the outside of one drop-out around the head-tube and to the same point on the outside of the other drop-out. Pull it tight. Fix it. Measure from the string to the seat tube on either side. It should be pretty close. Couple mm difference may be slop. A cm is probably bent.

C: If the frame is pretty straight and the wheel is dished, mount it and center it with the frame. Don't even consider the brakes. Brake bosses are often missplaced on the stays.

D: Adjust the brakes with the TPC adjuster all the way out. Make sure the slave pistons are both fully retracted. Eyeball the pad-faces to dead parallel with the rim and about 3 mm airgap per side. Tighten the hardware slightly and gently test the lever to see if you did well. Readjust accordingly. When it hits right, finish tightening and you are done.

pete b

[spoke2570]

See if you can open up the holes on those those Thresholds and lose the snails. The net will be much cleaner. Just make sure to deburr the holes.

[dengenerate]

See if you can open up the holes on those those Thresholds and lose the snails. The net will be much cleaner. Just make sure to deburr the holes.

yup. the thresholds don't fit your axle the way they were designed. if you ride it like that 1) the axle bolt being much smaller than the threshold's hole (10mm?) is going to be sloppy and deform the tensioner and the bolt threads, and worse 2) the lip on the axle will chew up your dropouts making it difficult to align the wheel properly later. i used a 12mm end mill in a drill press to open up the hole (the 12mm hole should not be centered on the existing hole, bc that wouldn't leave much material around the curved portion, so open the hole to the rear as viewed when installed) and deburred with some sandpaper. now its the shizzle.

[westcoaststyles]

ahh f*(%&^*$%*^!!!%%&*$^(&(*&^(%


i am soo frustrated right now. maybe im jinxed and getting back into trials wasn't the best thing for me to do. F***%%)^*)%(^)(%#%$

i know of nobody with a drill press. is there a 12mm tensioner out there that will work on my mod bike? fu(*(*(%$)(%()*%)($*)(%$*%)(*%$

just soo stressed right now. this is dumb

ALL I WANT TO DO IS RIDE!!! :(

[Yurich]

Dude, relax. It looks like your bike is in working order, no? Fucking ride it

[westcoaststyles]

noo i can't because the only way i can get the wheel to spin freely without pushing against the brake pad is if i leave the non driveside cam at it loosest and tighten the driveside. this holds tension for about a block of just pedalling.


edit: wow, it's like i am just asking for this. i don't understand why i suck so much

i was just about to take my wheel down to the shop to get it dished and noticed that some of the spokes are bent. please tell me that i wont have get the wheel re-laced.

http://img252.imageshack.us/img252/5791/1001797mediumad2.jpg

[Yurich]

no, bent spokes generally don't cause any issues. If you're going to the shop, they'll let you know if there's a problem

[Rodmunch]

Holy shit @ bent spokes! Do you know how to check spoke tension and do you have a good idea how tight spokes should be? If not, go to a bike shop ASAP. Those spokes look like they loosened up and you rode the bike with them loose.

[spoke2570]

I 23rd the move for you to go to a shop. The stuff you have there can be made to work really well. GET HELP.

pete b

[dengenerate]

is there a 12mm tensioner out there that will work on my mod bike?

the extent of my search was talking to mean todd at webcyclery. they've got several brands but no 12's. i liked the simplicity of the thresholds so i decided to mod it rather than keep looking. maybe find a local machine shop? they should be able to do it in a few minutes for a few bucks.

"wow" on the wheel being jacked up. that was built by a pro? and you didn't screw with it?

[westcoaststyles]

the extent of my search was talking to mean todd at webcyclery. they've got several brands but no 12's. i liked the simplicity of the thresholds so i decided to mod it rather than keep looking. maybe find a local machine shop? they should be able to do it in a few minutes for a few bucks.

"wow" on the wheel being jacked up. that was built by a pro? and you didn't screw with it?

Woo! Got my wheel dished, everything is all pretty, the bent spokes didn't effect anything. I've found though that the only way to get the wheel nice and centered is if the cams are facing a certain way and are on a certain side. This doesn't really make sense to me? They're both exactly the same right, so how does it matter if it's on the left or right side?

Yeah, I'll go down to a machine shop tomorrow and get them to bore it out. So you guys say to get them to drill a bit farther back? If you drilled it a little bit back wouldn't the little seat that the axel rests against be bigger so they wouldn't fit together as nicley?

And about the shop where I got it from. They've been horrible to deal with; they've just stopped replying to my emails. I don't want to post the name of the shop on a public message board, but if you really want to know the name just PM me.

[Ebon Dragon]

Wait, I don't understand what everyone is telling you to drill, it just looks like you've got the tensioners put on wrong because you forgot to take out the snail cams, aren't the thresholds supposed to sit where they (snail cams) are now?

As for the bike shop not replying to your emails, I have to say thats probably what you should have expected. They probably are swamped with work 24/7 and I know I wouldn't be bothered helping someone on the internet more than one email when I've got actual paying customers in my shop to please.

If you're still having trouble with all this, I'd be happy to help you out in person if you're willing to come down to burnaby, I'm sure I'll be able to get everything up and running.

[westcoaststyles]

The problem with the tensioners is that the hole is too small to fit where the snail cams are. The snail cams sit on the axel, which is 12mm, while the cams are only 10mm.

I bought the bike from the shop that I was sending the questions to. I haven't been to many shops but they ones that I have dealt with; if you were to buy a $1500 bike from them they'll give you like 5 free tune-ups or some other labor deal. I didn't think they'd have that much trouble when I just spent soo much at their shop.

I wish I lived somewhere in the lower mainland, but sadly I live all the way up in Prince Rupert. One day I'll get my ass up there, just one more year of college and hopefully I'll get accepted into SFU. :(

[Ebon Dragon]

Oh, I had no idea you bought it from them, didn't know there were bike shops in BC that dealt ECHO parts. PM me the name? That changes everything. Theres shit bike shops all over here too, mainly sharpie's cycle... bike I bought from them had a bb replaced with some no name china bb that rounded and fucked up my cranks in a month. Disc rotors were put on backwards, and all sorts of other stupid shit. Mechanic there didn't know wtf he was doing. Anyways yeah, get them tensioners drilled and come down for a ride sometime!

[dengenerate]

Wait, I don't understand what everyone is telling you to drill, it just looks like you've got the tensioners put on wrong because you forgot to take out the snail cams, aren't the thresholds supposed to sit where they (snail cams) are now?

um, definitely try replacing the snail cams before boring the tensioners.

CHECK THE HOLE OF THE TENSIONER AGAINST THE HOLE OF THE CAM. (they should be the same size.)

the hole in my snail cams (echo) were larger than the hole in the thresholds. so not knowing better i thought they were supposed to go on the outside like the pic posted. further research revealed that they are indeed supposed to take the place of the cams, and thus i either had to find another tensioner or bore it. here's an illustration of what i was trying to explain... the green circle is where i placed the 12mm hole. you can see that if the 12mm and original hole were concentric, there wouldn't be a ton of material left at the rounded end.
http://filebox.vt.edu/users/lejr2/threshold.bmp

[dengenerate]

The problem with the tensioners is that the hole is too small to fit where the snail cams are.

oh, sounds like you figured the hole size matching thing out. :hsugh:

[westcoaststyles]

F83478&*%$%$$%$
So everything just went to shits again. I wasn't pushing evenly when I was first trying to see if the re-dishing actually fixed anything. I got back to the same problem when I was trying to tighten everything.

I am wondering if the dropouts are different lengths? They don't look the same and the axel sits in a different place on both.

There's an amazing bike shop about an hour away, so I think I'll just call a head and eat up the gas charges to get this done once and for all.

Any idea what it could be though? The dishing seemed to fix the problem a bit. But not to the extent that I was hoping for. Maybe my wheel is just centered and the tensioner will hold it in place better. I used a ruler to try and measure the sidewalls against the swingarm to see if the wheel was center with the frame. That didn't work too well. What else could I try to see if it's centered.

[dengenerate]

yeah, they should be identical. ...it shouldn't make a difference.:dunno:

[Ebon Dragon]

You had your wheel trued and dished by a shop right? If so...

Step 1: take off your rear brake cylinders completely

Step 2: flip the bike upsidedown

Step 3: assemble the tensioners/wheel loosely onto the bike, pump up your tire.

Step 4: tighten the hub bolts so your wheel has just a tiny bit of room to wiggle around, and can still slide freely in the dropouts

Step 5: set up your driveside tensioner first so it gets your chain nice and tight, after all thats the point of having them

Step 6: watch where the tire sits in relation to your seatstay/chainstay yokes as you set up the nondriveside tensioner. get the wheel as centered as you can and when you're satisfied with it snug all the bolts up

Step 7: resetup your rear brake, make it so the pads hit as much of the rim as possible. the key to having good brakes here is to have it so your brake pads hit totally flat on the rim, also, make sure your pads hit at the exact same time. AVOID USING THE TPA, set up your brakes right the first time with the tpa on the "lowest" ..uh "setting"

Step 8: DONE!

[westcoaststyles]

Ok, got the thresholds drilled out. They're just like half a mm to small though. Hopefully I can find some sandpaper and make it better.