A system you should try

[Ben Savage]

Hi, Fred using Ben's id, as I am not registered...............



After hours spent on the telephone with my good friend Tim from Trialsin I still fail to understand why Trials comps are not more popular in the USA. Could it be red tape fright? Well we have suffered with that syndrome in the UK, so much so that a new no-nonsense federation has been formed, the British Biketrial Federation. We now run events where no licence or club membership is required, just pay the entry fee. We can accommodate U.K. riders PLUS any riders that care to visit from anywhere else – on a global basis. We run to 95% BIU rules with no shoe, shorts, single speed restrictions, a format that you should sample. Last Sunday we ran a comp with more competitors attending than have ever attended a National comp in the U.K. before, see trials-forum Blackpool trophy topics for news.
So is it time for a “no red tape” world round? Would you like to visit one of our comps with help (once here) from U.K. Trials riders? – comments welcome.



Fred Savage.

[templarbond]

I think the main problem is that there just aren't that many riders in any one area.
If I held a comp here in Raleigh NC, I think I could pull together 6 local riders, maybe, and 10 who would drive 3 hours or so, if they weren't doing something else, and I consider this area to be quite well up in the trials numbers.

[ONE EYE]

The last comp. up here in the Maryland/ PA. area that wasn't motorama was candy town. At that comp. there was only about 15 to 20 people.

That is the problem with contests, people are so far apart that they would have to drive for many hours to get to the contest.

The idea sounds really good though and I would love to attend a contest like that one. It would be cool if it would work around here.

Matt.

[Keith Courage]

Both previous posts are spot on. The comp idea is sounds really solid but there just isn't that sort of concentration of riders in the US.
If I could magically drag all Florida riders to a comp there MIGHT be 20 people.
This forum has, what, 9,000 members? I'd say half of them, possibly more are from another country. This only serves to demonstrate the popularity of trials in the US.

[Stikman]

Its a great idea Fred, but I might put my neck out here and say that the way you have started your federation here in the UK is maybe the wrong way ahead?

I'm not trying to offend you, and obviously with such a great turnout at your Blackpool comp you have hit the nail on the head, (btw, I was very keen to attend but Guiness fever hit me hard after the FA final!) but it still seems as though a large part of the trials community that I have spoken to seem offended that you would turn your back on them and do your own thing.

I guess that it is ego mixed with politics and yes, red tape, but from my experience (the same thing happened in New Zealand where I am from, except we were all for trying to help the no red tape comp thing grow), if both parties can work together, then the sport can only be stronger.

It would be cool to hear your perspective on the comp scene and where you think it can go, and if I have got something wrong here, then feel free to let me in on the full side of your story.

Cheers.


Hope to see you at your next comp. :)

Mike Hickman

[Ben Savage]

Mike, thanks for the compliment, many agree with you and are voting with their feet. I am happy to share facts with anyone, but I do not see the point of turning a constructive post into a discussion about past history, call me, I’ll enlighten you – if you wish to post my comments after, it’s up to you.

There was a great turn out at the weekend, just short of 100 riders, almost twice that of another recent national – why? Both were at great venues. I have never steered shy of change, I am fortunate to have been in a position to discuss comps with fellow organizers the world over, many feel restricted by adhering to one set of rules or another, who really cares about the politics. The federation I am part of will run a full national series to BIU rules and a smaller series run to UCI rules to select the British team for 2008. We should all take our blinkers off and get on with having fun at comps instead of engaging in an inter organization war.

To those from the USA that cite distance as the main obstacle, I suggest you need some events that run through a whole weekend to make the travel worthwhile, at least your fuel is a fraction of the price of ours! If events are made accessible to casual riders, (hence no license), more will come and the sport will grow, making local comps more viable, but it takes work and enthusiasm. I run events because I truly enjoy it and I hope those that attend enjoy them.



Fred.

[PJL]

We now run events where no licence or club membership is required, just pay the entry fee. We can accommodate U.K. riders PLUS any riders that care to visit from anywhere else – on a global basis. We run to 95% BIU rules with no shoe, shorts, single speed restrictions...

What you just described is essentially 90-95% of the events put on in the US. If anything, our informality is a bigger problem than too many rules. Which of course is far behind the travel times and small rider population.

I think we need to cultivate the younger riders first and build up a bigger rider base before we even think about getting into the league of international governing bodies.

[tara.john@tiscali.co.uk]

I will totaly agree with Fred.
He is a close friend of mine, he looks after my sons intrests with bike and equipment. We have a great team to run events over here and with advise from the likes of Fred you could also do the same.
Maybe we will travel over the pond and compete in you country some day soon.

[RomanC]

Besides distance there is a question of money. If there are no large rocks formations then it takes money/effort to create the course. If the attendance is too small then the promoter is bound to loose money.

[Moment Designs]

I will totaly agree with Fred.
He is a close friend of mine, he looks after my sons intrests with bike and equipment. We have a great team to run events over here and with advise from the likes of Fred you could also do the same.
Maybe we will travel over the pond and compete in you country some day soon.


Do you drive to paris every day? That is literally how long it takes me to go to the closest group of other riders. To get a group of 10 riders together people would have to come from 5-8 hours away...and I live in california, a state that is 158,706 sq mi (england is 79,620 sq. mi.). So basically twice the size of england, and I think we have maybe 15-20 riders.


Now imagine england HAS 7 RIDERS. THAT IS IT. The whole country has 7 riders. What system do you put into place with 7 riders in your whole country? France will have 5 or 6 riders. Spain has a few....etc...


You can see our issue.

[Fred Savage]

Hi Andy.

Geography time………..

It’s true the size of USA is a little scary; I often have a joke with Tim about different attitudes to travel. In America everything is to far away, in the U.K. fuel is too expensive to go any where and the roads are so crowded you can’t make any progress if you do.

Back to your point;

A four to five hour trip to a comp including an overnight stay is not uncommon; those that live in the south are closer to Paris than the popular Northern venues.

We are at a different stage of “trials evolution” to you. When I first started to attend comps there would sometimes be around 10 people, where comps in Spain were probably attracting many more, but we have worked hard here to make things happen, good comps, properly organised now attract close on 100 riders.

Your advantage is that you have successful blue prints to follow.

When I travel around the U.K. I see kids on BMX bikes wrecking their knees due to big gears trying to do trials moves; these are comp organisers potential attendees. Take a good look at some of the pics posted from Blackpool – look at the age of some of the riders, really young. Their parents tell me they enjoy the comp environment, it’s a health sport that improves their kid’s fitness and coordination. We reciprocate by providing real easy sections that they can just about roll through without compromising the kid’s bravery or skill. Even more important there is a route just above theirs to which they can aspire. Too often comps are aimed at the few “names” that may attend, it can spoil for the rest, and my aim is to give those that ride a good time.

The point of my original post was to point out that we are still trying to make comps more accessible by cutting away the obstacles and more fun by giving people what they want.
Its taken time to produce a truly popular format that is easy to reproduce.

Fred. (A newbies 1st post – go easy on me!).

[giventofly]

I would have to say...about Tim from Trialsin....

There probably isnt a guy in North America that knows more about comps in the US. Tim has tried both "in the box" and "out of the box" thinking about running events. The red tape isn't the problem here.

I've run events with NO red tape....no sanctioning, no licensing, with UCI rules, BIU rules, UNI rules......none of them have had over 40 riders show. Simply put, nobody in the (midwest anyway) US wants to sit in a car for 4 hours looking at corn go by. Plain and simple, that's the reason.

Once you factor in 100 bucks for gas, 150 for hotel, then add food, beer, and entry fee.....the entry fee itself is only a TINY fraction of the overall cost of attending an event and NOT the dissuading factor.

It's also a word of mouth thing. In UK...the concentration of riders is much higher. If 25% of trials riders visit forums and know about comps...they all tell 4 buddies, you have saturation.

Here, we're MUCH farther apart. I'm in cleveland....I NEVER ride with the next nearest town's riders (toledo) because the next major population center is 2+ hours away. Most of those guys don't post on here, so if I'm throwing a comp...they won't know about it.

The US is simply too spread out. Think about it. If there were 5 trials riders living in London, and the next closest group of 5 trials riders lived in Birmingham.....how easy would it be to get together to ride?

Also, in this comparitave scenario...the closest comp to London is one event per year in Paris.

That's a comparison of the trials scene in ohio.

[Montyman]

Country size is no excuse...Canada is just as big and way more spread out population-wise. We get 50 to local competitions and 75 to the Whistler event. Its all about setting up grassroots programs for the kids. We do shows at schools, have free clinics to show kids what competitions are like and we put on a free kids competition in Whistler. Right now we have two 6 year olds on Monty 205's that are amazing and a 9 year old that I believe could win overseas. Probably half the kids who ride are under 14.

I am sure everyone would like to just have people show up and compete but up here in Canada (and I am sure the US) there is a little red tape thing called liability and insurance to deal with. Just dealing with that doubles the price of most competitions. That is the main hurdle we have to overcome...that and getting riders to check sections.

Mike

[rush]

I think the two most important things in comps is to have that novice level that anyone can ride and feel good about, and also that level they can realistically aspire to.

Most organisers get so used to setting sections they dont put enough thought into the beginner sections, and thats where everything starts.

[Moment Designs]

Hi Andy.

Geography time………..

It’s true the size of USA is a little scary; I often have a joke with Tim about different attitudes to travel. In America everything is to far away, in the U.K. fuel is too expensive to go any where and the roads are so crowded you can’t make any progress if you do.

Back to your point;

A four to five hour trip to a comp including an overnight stay is not uncommon; those that live in the south are closer to Paris than the popular Northern venues.




I'm talking about a 4 or 5 hour trip JUST TO GO RIDE WITH MORE THAN ONE PERSON!!!! If I want to ride with 3 or 4 people, I have to go 6-7 hours away.



NOT a comp!! If I could drive 4 or 5 hours to a comp I would do it without heisitation, and I used to all the time...hell 8 or 9 hours was normal...most us guys make full day trips to get to comps.

[Moment Designs]

Country size is no excuse...Canada is just as big and way more spread out population-wise. We get 50 to local competitions and 75 to the Whistler event. Its all about setting up grassroots programs for the kids. We do shows at schools, have free clinics to show kids what competitions are like and we put on a free kids competition in Whistler. Right now we have two 6 year olds on Monty 205's that are amazing and a 9 year old that I believe could win overseas. Probably half the kids who ride are under 14.

I am sure everyone would like to just have people show up and compete but up here in Canada (and I am sure the US) there is a little red tape thing called liability and insurance to deal with. Just dealing with that doubles the price of most competitions. That is the main hurdle we have to overcome...that and getting riders to check sections.

Mike

Look at where you are...whislter...lots of trials riders around there. Let me know how many trials riders there are in the center of the country away from decent sized cities/tourist places.

[Moment Designs]

I would have to say...about Tim from Trialsin....

There probably isnt a guy in North America that knows more about comps in the US. Tim has tried both "in the box" and "out of the box" thinking about running events. The red tape isn't the problem here.

I've run events with NO red tape....no sanctioning, no licensing, with UCI rules, BIU rules, UNI rules......none of them have had over 40 riders show. Simply put, nobody in the (midwest anyway) US wants to sit in a car for 4 hours looking at corn go by. Plain and simple, that's the reason.

Once you factor in 100 bucks for gas, 150 for hotel, then add food, beer, and entry fee.....the entry fee itself is only a TINY fraction of the overall cost of attending an event and NOT the dissuading factor.

It's also a word of mouth thing. In UK...the concentration of riders is much higher. If 25% of trials riders visit forums and know about comps...they all tell 4 buddies, you have saturation.

Here, we're MUCH farther apart. I'm in cleveland....I NEVER ride with the next nearest town's riders (toledo) because the next major population center is 2+ hours away. Most of those guys don't post on here, so if I'm throwing a comp...they won't know about it.

The US is simply too spread out. Think about it. If there were 5 trials riders living in London, and the next closest group of 5 trials riders lived in Birmingham.....how easy would it be to get together to ride?

Also, in this comparitave scenario...the closest comp to London is one event per year in Paris.

That's a comparison of the trials scene in ohio.



:werd:


Just take my previous statement, IMAGINE there are 5-6 riders in ALL OF ENGLAND...Another couple in france, a couple more in spain...

[[BMF] Chris]

i was telling a guy from the uk the other day that ive driven over 14 hours to comps like motorama and snowshoe, and he was like holy crap, our whole country isnt even that big. just goes to show you....

[Matt]

Including Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland you country is 242,900 square kilometers.

the U.S. is 9,629,091

We would have to have 40 times the U.K's riding population in the U.S. to make it as densely populated as the U.K. which would then allow us to make a similar comparison. Quite frankly I think we have less trials riders in the U.S. than the U.K. has in total.

Fred, I like what you've done, but it's not going to happen in the U.S.

[RomanC]

There is also a problem with lack of riding places. For instance, in midwest you will be hard pressed to find decent rocks within a reasonable amount of time. (barring a few exceptions). Kind of hard to get grassroots going when there are very few places to ride at.

[eturt9]

Next weekend I'm driving 7 hours to a comp. There will probably be about a dozen riders max (half riding sport or better) which about sums up all of the riders in wisconsin, minnesota, and north dakota

[trialsin usa]

I don't know what the answer is, but it is simply geography that is a problem. Bike sales are greater than they were a few years ago, yet attendance at events is less. NORBA nationals at Mt Snow in late '90s got 60-90 riders. Motorama not so many years ago got 150 riders (record for anywhere in North America). EFTA events mid '90s averaged 30-40 riders. Event I put on last weekend in West Virginia had only 17 riders. The examples old and new are too numerous to list

Anyway....point is, geography is an easy cop out for an explanation.

I think there are a couple other factors. Other hobbies, and I hate to say it....but too many other things for people to spend money on rather than save it to go to an event. I can't think of any other explanations.

Having said that, the West Virginia event last weekend was a blast. It looked like the riders had a good time.... and that is the key. Events being a good time......as much fun socially as competitively.

[Montyman]

Look at where you are...whislter...lots of trials riders around there. Let me know how many trials riders there are in the center of the country away from decent sized cities/tourist places.

There is a reason Whistler and Vancouver has all these riders! It doesn't just happen because it's "Whistler"!! I am sure there are 50 cities in the US bigger than Vancouver and thousands bigger than Whistler. Its all about getting the kids involved. Start doing demos at schools, setting easy sections for kids to try free at local competitions. It doesn't just happen you have to make it happen!

[PalyPlayer]

I think the point he was trying to make is that whistler is like a bike mecca therefore very dense population of riders. Very dense population of riders easier to get them out there teaching kids and showing kids trials. Also you can't forget that yes our cities may be bigger but they just don't have the same backbone of riders and good places to ride.

I can't speak for the rest of america but i think that california has a higher density of trials riders than we know. I have talked to a lot of people who have tried trials(stopped because not enough people to ride with) and have seen some trials riders at random spots while driving around. The problem is networking and keeping people in the sport. I really do wish there were more comps around they all seemed to end when i got my car(ability to go to comps).

[Moment Designs]

There is a reason Whistler and Vancouver has all these riders! It doesn't just happen because it's "Whistler"!! I am sure there are 50 cities in the US bigger than Vancouver and thousands bigger than Whistler. Its all about getting the kids involved. Start doing demos at schools, setting easy sections for kids to try free at local competitions. It doesn't just happen you have to make it happen!


:ugh:


yeah and every other person there practically rides a bike just for fun. It is like a mtn bike mecca of sorts, as explained in post above.





Tim, you could say the pro level events of the 90s = the sport level riding of today. maybe another reason...

[Montyman]

Actually Whistler has nothing to do with it at all. There isn't a single Whistler resident who competes in our competitions. It just so happens that is where one of the competitions is....besides, existing mountain bikers who are 20 years old are not the riders you need to get for the sport to grow

One example of what I am talking about....

We did a show at a Elementary School yesterday for about 100 kids. The riders were Steve who is 16 as well as a 6 year old, 9 year old, 12 year old and 13 year old. Afterwards we had at least 20 parents come up and ask where the kids can get started. The shows need to have little kids in them so they can see what is possible. Having a pro rider demo for 20 minutes doing incredibly hard stuff is great but unrealistic for most young kids to think they will be able to do it eventually.

[WhiteRavenKS]

i've ridden probably a dozen shows at schools and the parents say "you guys are nuts!" and "thanks for telling my kids to wear a helmet, maybe now they will listen and do that when they ride their scooter at the skate park"... none of them ask about having their kids do some clinics or about where to get bikes or if we will go for a ride with them. they care about getting little timmy sonuvabitch to basketball practice on time.

it's also a difference of accepttance of sports. if you think that "whistler" and "vancouver" are like cities in the US then you're head is up your ass a little. europe and canada both i can assure you are more accepting of non-mainstream sports. kids here give a shit about ball-sports and nascar. cycling doesnt get much respect and only recently has skating and winter sports gained more mainstream respect and acceptance. even here in Boulder- a city you would think would be like one of easily 50+ cities in the US just like whistler and vancouver, cycling doesnt mean shit. there are kids that go to boulder high that win jr x class gravity and xc mountain bike races at a national level and roadie kids who kill it in the region and when they go to school on monday after winning that weekend, they are just "that kid with the shaved legs"

in 2004 i drove to big bear- about 18 hours away and arkansas about 16 hours away. durango, in my state is an 8 hour drive away. gunnison i try not to miss ever and it's 5-6 hours away.
i tried to put on my own little series along the front range of colorao one year. the farthest drives would have been under 3 hours. people showed up for the first comp, probably 20 people. after that it was 7... 4... 3... 5...

[DUNDERHED]

I think there is more to it than just geography. It seems to me in the last few years that some of the lack of support has come from less involvement in the mountain bike community and industry via changes in bike design and less events in conjunction with mountain bike races/festivals. There also seems to be less advertising of events.

I used to ride pro back in the early to mid 90's and in the years since I have continued to keep up on things in the trials community.In general there used to be more exposure for trials when it was involved with mountain bike events. I agree that we need to get more involved with younger potential riders. I liked the direction that NORBA and some individual promoters were going with the free kids races at mountain bike events. I think we could do something similar. The kids that would see us at mountain bike races usually had parents that were into biking. This could result in more support for their child to get involved in something like trials. I don't know about other areas but around here if the parent isn't into the sport (usually involving some sort of ball) then the kids don't get much support and encouragement. I'm not saying that mountain bike races and festivals be the only focus for new riders but it seems to be a oportunity that has been somewhat taken for granted.

The whole change in bike design (thus lack of interest from most mountain bike manufacturers) is part of the evolution of the sport. This most likely won't change anytime soon. I think for the most part this is good but it has affected interest in trials.

As for advertising events, there used to basically be only one broad source for finding out about events other than word of mouth. That was Dirt Rag magazine. If you were looking for an event or wanted to get the word out it was in their schedule. This is free advertising that is underused for trials now. There are several trials events planned or that have past that were not listed in there. With all the advances in media we've had in the past decade some good resources have been forgotten or just overlooked. A lot of new riders don't know that sites like this one exist. We need to consider this when planning an event and look for additional ways to spread the word.

Just my 2 cents.


Toby

[kwilson]

Friday I did a demo at my wife's school, for the entire school. 5 groups of nearly 200 each. After talking about safety, I showed them what trials is all about. The parent volunteers that were there all said they have never seen anything like it. No matter how small our part is, we need to be our own promoters of the sport. Also, I think we all understand, whether we like it or not, trials will never be a "big" sport. We all love it, we all ride our hearts out, but it wil never be mainstream, oh well. I started in trials in 1990, and over the past 17 years, much has changed, except 1 thing, the question of how to grow the sport has always been the same, and in 17 years, no one has had a concrete answer. MAny suggestions, but no solutions. I, for one, would love to be able to host an event, but with raising 3 daughters, and working full time, I barely have any time to even ride, so hosting is out. Those of you who do host events, THANKS!! (tim williamson...) For 3 years now, I've had an idea of a great lakes series, 1 event per month, each in a state or province that touches one of the great lakes, New york (raccoon rally), maybe ohio (vultures Knob?), Michigan (flint revival?), and ontario (toronto, the farm, Quarry in Pt. Colborne?) 4 events, 1 per promoter, over 4 months. This spreads the work out to 4 promoters that may already be doing some events, just need to coordinate them, make a series of it and use each one to promote the others. Maybe even have them tied to a Mountain bike event for more cross promotion.

OK, I'm getting off my soap box. Thanks for listening to my rant.

my $.02

[aj_the_first]

There is a reason Whistler and Vancouver has all these riders! It doesn't just happen because it's "Whistler"!! I am sure there are 50 cities in the US bigger than Vancouver and thousands bigger than Whistler. Its all about getting the kids involved. Start doing demos at schools, setting easy sections for kids to try free at local competitions. It doesn't just happen you have to make it happen!

Montyman is right in a sense, but I think it goes a bit deeper than this. First, like he says, kids have no idea what trials is because we are not introducing the sport to new competitors in the US, but another key point is this:

Most average American parents don't want their children participating in seemingly "dangerous" sports, and more importantly: average American parents don't want their child participating in seemingly "pointless" sports.

In the much of Europe (and possibly Canada), if you participate in sports, then it is probably not a school sanctioned event but rather it is part of a club.
I think the average American parents attitude of "if my kid can't get a college scholarship on it (ie: American football, basketball, etc.) then I am going to discourage them."

I started riding in 1993 at the age of 13. It took about four years of competition until I won the Jr. Nationals in 1997 before my parents even believed that trials was some sort of sanctioned sport. Prior to that point they told me I was wasting money and time practicing and going to events.

I've been harassed, spit at, called gay, had Toxic Bell burritos thrown at me, etc. all for participating in a sport called "Observed trials." Most people think it is cool if they stop and have a watch, but there is still a large portion of America that considers all sports that aren't shown basic cable as "gay." I've had parents tell me to "stay away from my kids" "don't show my kids that stupid stuff", "don't encourage my children to participate in a pointless sport", etc. I can't remember how many times a young rider watches me with their parents, tries some sort of small hop, and their mom or dad immediately tells them to stop because I am a "trained professional" and they are not.

In the UK, where "offbeat" sports are considered nearly as relevent as any other sport by parents and the community, then a less structured format and encouraging young riders is acceptable, but in the US until bicycles in general, and later biketrials, is deemed a somewhat "normal" sport, then it will not lift off as it has in Europe.

I say: blame Americans for their innate desire to conform and their learned behavior of "don't try this at home."

Trials just can't become popular in a society like the US that fears injury and health insurance premiums.

This brings me to the benefits that socialized medicine like the UK has on society ...

Hopefully you can see where I am going. Nearly all unexplainable social anomalies in America (such as a lack of BikeTrials riders) are related to the expense of insurance and/or a lack of socialized medical care.

Oh, and ALL other unexplainable anomalies in this world are related to UFOs.

No, I'm serious.

[mekanic305]

Montyman is right in a sense, but I think it goes a bit deeper than this. First, like he says, kids have no idea what trials is because we are not introducing the sport to new competitors in the US, but another key point is this:

Most average American parents don't want their children participating in seemingly "dangerous" sports, and more importantly: average American parents don't want their child participating in seemingly "pointless" sports.

In the much of Europe (and possibly Canada), if you participate in sports, then it is probably not a school sanctioned event but rather it is part of a club.
I think the average American parents attitude of "if my kid can't get a college scholarship on it (ie: American football, basketball, etc.) then I am going to discourage them."

I started riding in 1993 at the age of 13. It took about four years of competition until I won the Jr. Nationals in 1997 before my parents even believed that trials was some sort of sanctioned sport. Prior to that point they told me I was wasting money and time practicing and going to events.

I've been harassed, spit at, called gay, had Toxic Bell burritos thrown at me, etc. all for participating in a sport called "Observed trials." Most people think it is cool if they stop and have a watch, but there is still a large portion of America that considers all sports that aren't shown basic cable as "gay." I've had parents tell me to "stay away from my kids" "don't show my kids that stupid stuff", "don't encourage my children to participate in a pointless sport", etc. I can't remember how many times a young rider watches me with their parents, tries some sort of small hop, and their mom or dad immediately tells them to stop because I am a "trained professional" and they are not.

In the UK, where "offbeat" sports are considered nearly as relevent as any other sport by parents and the community, then a less structured format and encouraging young riders is acceptable, but in the US until bicycles in general, and later biketrials, is deemed a somewhat "normal" sport, then it will not lift off as it has in Europe.

I say: blame Americans for their innate desire to conform and their learned behavior of "don't try this at home."

Trials just can't become popular in a society like the US that fears injury and health insurance premiums.

This brings me to the benefits that socialized medicine like the UK has on society ...

Hopefully you can see where I am going. Nearly all unexplainable social anomalies in America (such as a lack of BikeTrials riders) are related to the expense of insurance and/or a lack of socialized medical care.

Oh, and ALL other unexplainable anomalies in this world are related to UFOs.

No, I'm serious.

Many good points here. My question to you would be how did bmx, skateboarding, and all these other "extreme sports" explode into what they are now with this 'American culture' you speak of? They are all more dangerous than trials and relatively speaking hold the same stereotype of not being usefull...or at least in their infancy. So what happened to get these sports to the level they are today, recognized by many and considered fairly respectible sports that earn many people a decent living?

[AndyT]

Montyman is right in a sense, but I think it goes a bit deeper than this. First, like he says, kids have no idea what trials is because we are not introducing the sport to new competitors in the US, but another key point is this:

Most average American parents don't want their children participating in seemingly "dangerous" sports, and more importantly: average American parents don't want their child participating in seemingly "pointless" sports.

In the much of Europe (and possibly Canada), if you participate in sports, then it is probably not a school sanctioned event but rather it is part of a club.
I think the average American parents attitude of "if my kid can't get a college scholarship on it (ie: American football, basketball, etc.) then I am going to discourage them."

I started riding in 1993 at the age of 13. It took about four years of competition until I won the Jr. Nationals in 1997 before my parents even believed that trials was some sort of sanctioned sport. Prior to that point they told me I was wasting money and time practicing and going to events.

I've been harassed, spit at, called gay, had Toxic Bell burritos thrown at me, etc. all for participating in a sport called "Observed trials." Most people think it is cool if they stop and have a watch, but there is still a large portion of America that considers all sports that aren't shown basic cable as "gay." I've had parents tell me to "stay away from my kids" "don't show my kids that stupid stuff", "don't encourage my children to participate in a pointless sport", etc. I can't remember how many times a young rider watches me with their parents, tries some sort of small hop, and their mom or dad immediately tells them to stop because I am a "trained professional" and they are not.

In the UK, where "offbeat" sports are considered nearly as relevent as any other sport by parents and the community, then a less structured format and encouraging young riders is acceptable, but in the US until bicycles in general, and later biketrials, is deemed a somewhat "normal" sport, then it will not lift off as it has in Europe.

I say: blame Americans for their innate desire to conform and their learned behavior of "don't try this at home."

Trials just can't become popular in a society like the US that fears injury and health insurance premiums.

This brings me to the benefits that socialized medicine like the UK has on society ...

Hopefully you can see where I am going. Nearly all unexplainable social anomalies in America (such as a lack of BikeTrials riders) are related to the expense of insurance and/or a lack of socialized medical care.

Oh, and ALL other unexplainable anomalies in this world are related to UFOs.

No, I'm serious.

:bowrofl:

[Jackhammer]

Country size is no excuse...Canada is just as big and way more spread out population-wise.
Mike

I live in Canada. I've only rode with 1 person in almost two seasons who even knows what a pedal kick is. I've maybe ridden with 4 or 5 different trials riders....ever.

[aj_the_first]

Many good points here. My question to you would be how did bmx, skateboarding, and all these other "extreme sports" explode into what they are now with this 'American culture' you speak of? They are all more dangerous than trials and relatively speaking hold the same stereotype of not being usefull...or at least in their infancy. So what happened to get these sports to the level they are today, recognized by many and considered fairly respectible sports that earn many people a decent living?

Excellent counter point. I think that we need to study how they managed to overcome the social norm and become accepted.
Though I do thing the fact that skateboards and BMX bikes of reasonable quality can be purchased for a few hundred dollars or less, and a trials bike is a significant $1000+ investment, also plays a part in the difficulty of propogating biketrials among the poor rebelious youth that are most likely to pick up the sport.

[Fred Savage]

Many good points here. My question to you would be how did bmx, skateboarding, and all these other "extreme sports" explode into what they are now with this 'American culture' you speak of? They are all more dangerous than trials and relatively speaking hold the same stereotype of not being usefull...or at least in their infancy. So what happened to get these sports to the level they are today, recognized by many and considered fairly respectible sports that earn many people a decent living?

A very interesting point.


But in reply to aj – I don’t think its money as the price of equipment is often far out weighed by cost of travel etc regardless of what your hobby is. I notice as I drive around U.K. cities that kids on BMX bikes are often trying simple Trails moves – should we accommodate other types of cycles at comps? After all when our sport was born there were no Trials Bikes available – just a thought…..

Fred.

[LanceT]

You can't compare trials to BMX or skateboarding because trials has very little culture. In BMX those guys are doing it whether they make money or not. It is there lifestyle. A lot of trials riders are like this too, but overall there is not too many of them.

Regardless, the success of those other sports is only for a limited time and then they will go underground again. But it isn't based on competition, it's based on comradery.

Why does someone want to go to a comp...you get no money, no attention and you will probably ride worse stuff than you have at home. It's not worth the stress and expense. Too much risk, too little reward.

The 90's was successful because major bicycle companies put money into it. Now it's Echo and Zoo. Not the same thing.

[stickyworm]

Speaking of bike companies. Let's use another extreme sport as an example. It used to be that if you wanted a skateboard, you made one out of rolle skates and some plywood. Sure the sport evolved, but the companies attitude is significantly different than in trials. A skate/snowboard company sells its vision of cool in its culture. How? They will make their name known. As an example, here in Ontario is one of the largest sports resorts in north america, companies pay to have their products used there. They will pay to have a demo done, to gain exposure. In trials we got it screwed up, especially with demos. Riders should be paid to ride, but who wants to hire a demo team to come promote their bikes at your store. If the name of my store was on the boxes, great, but that isn't what happens. We contacted a company to promote their bikes to a dedicated and loaded crowd of 700 athletes. What did they ask? How much will it pay... Are you insane?! I'm not paying you to advertise your product, get your head out of your butt.

The other problem I see with demos of this sort is that it presents the sport as a form of entertainment. It is nothing short of busking on street corners. Who watches cirque and goes home wanting to do it? A significantly small percentage will because they are seperated from the action. A behind the scenes visit is much more inspiring.

I also have to say that Canada is not the trials friendly place that it seems. Sure we've got Ryan Leech travelling around, and our national sport is canoing... no wait it's hockey. Every kid in this contry plays hockey. 90% of my school friends shelled out close to $1000 to balance on sharp metal things, hit eachother and belt a hard rubber projectile at oneanother. How is trials not bigger? And in a sense less risky?

[muddyfox]

A very interesting point.


But in reply to aj – I don’t think its money as the price of equipment is often far out weighed by cost of travel etc regardless of what your hobby is. I notice as I drive around U.K. cities that kids on BMX bikes are often trying simple Trails moves – should we accommodate other types of cycles at comps? After all when our sport was born there were no Trials Bikes available – just a thought…..

Fred.

Ive seen beginners compete at comps here on bmx bikes and "regular" mtn bikes. In fact we try to encourage it.

[bouncingbabyboy]

Okay, I have been interested in trials since I worked in a bike shop and one of the guys I worked with showed me a Hans Rey Video. He showed me how to ride down stairs, up stairs and pivot off a curb. He could roll back about a foot and a half and he could manual a small flight of stairs.

In my home town of Sacramento there was a breif time when people let kids build skate ramps in the back yard. Almost thirty years later a group of guys finally convince the city to build a skate park in an area far from the developing center of town. Not until nearly every city in CA had a skate park would they build on in Sac. Skateboarding is as a few of you have said, much cheaper to get into and honestly doesn't require as much discipline. I have been trying to learn trials for 15 years or so and I still suck.

I recently found in Sacramento a bike shop where a couple of guys talked a lot of trash about starting a basic riding skills class. One of them had a monty and taught one other guy at the shop to get onto his back wheel.

[bouncingbabyboy]

I remember around 1988 ski resorts wouldn't let snow boarders ride the lifts. Now they are as plentiful as skiers. Some people say it saved skiing.

I love white water Kayaking. I tried to build intrest to put together a kayaking video game. Think PS2 Downhill domination or SStrixxy in boats. I talked to the head of most of the largest boat makers and multiple pro kayakers. What they told me was that bike manufacturers sell bikes with the plan that everyone in the country will own at least one bike in thier life. They sell in multiple areas of the same town where kayaking has a small sales market even in areas that have rivers. Maybey one or two shops per paddling area.

[bouncingbabyboy]

So lets compare all that to trials. You need sick skills to do trials. You need an expensive bike just to not break it. You need a place to ride. The stuff you ride on isn't a pretty park of rolling hills, instead it is blocks and rocks and boards at odd angles. Most of the kids in my nieghborhood are riding ToysRus bikes that the breaks don't work at all. I have tried to fix a few and it is not possible because they can't even shell out $20 for a brake that works. Some of the kids that have bikes that are worth a shit can pivot or manual. Some of them have enven seen someone do a pedal kick but they can't do it.

[bouncingbabyboy]

There was a trials camp at Eagle Mountain but I heard they quit doing it. I heard that Sea Otter Classic had a trials comp and I was going to take my family, then I heard they won't be doing it any more. I know five guys in Sacramento that ride. I have been riding with three of them. One only once. So after 15 years of thinking trials is the coolest thing I have ever seen I have seen 1 Adamant in Southlake Tahoe, 1 Zebdi in Southlake, two montys, the Tibo my friend had when I met him, the echo team he replaced it with a Koxx another guy I road with had and the two bikes I own. Oh and one Echo somethingorether I saw at a BMX track.

[bouncingbabyboy]

When I learned to snowboard it was fall on your ass till you could get down the hill. When I learned to skate it was fall until you get it or just don't do it and if you wanted a ramp build it.

Now there are classes where they teach people to carve on snowboards. You can take a class on riding the half pipe on a snowboard. You can go to camp Woodward and learn to ride a half pipe on a skateboard or a BMX bike. Hell you can even learn to ski jump or do aireals at a camp.

How do you learn to do trials. My friends that I ride with now have shown me a little. My wife and I went to the camp at Eagle mountain. If you want to get people into the sport you have to have a park where people can practice. You have to have someon who will show kids how. And then there is BMX...

[bouncingbabyboy]

So you have the X games. Where is trials. You have kids on BMX coming off a ramp to a hitching post, tapping and rolling back in. You have kids doing freestyle and spinning bars. Now every pice of shit bike sold today has a cable detangler and how many kids will ever spin the handle bars except when they crash. Why is it that every time I hear someone talk about trials they are terrified someone might think thier bike is a mountain bike or a BMX bike. People don't want to be compared to BMX riders because they ride sloppy or represent the bad element in society.

Didn't Hans No Way Rey do all of this on a BMX bike. Ryan Leech does it on a mountain bike (more or less). Even my wife who has been to a trials clinic, owns three bikes and has seen all the trials videos is nervous about even getting on a bike without a seat. This sport is a hard sell.

[bouncingbabyboy]

Right now my son is riding a Haro Z12 with a rear wheel I built out of a bulletproof hub and a shimano rim. He has a BMX hand brake because no one makes a kids bike without a coaster brake. He has a 28x22 gear ratio because it was easier to get a 22 tooth freewheel for the back than find a 18 tooth chain ring to fit his little cranks. I actually like the Monty push bike but I bought the Haro before I saw it. I am debating on his next bike. I like the 205PR but it is pretty spendy for a single purpose bike. Giant and Scott make nice mountain bikes for kids with V brakes but I would have to get a rigid fork for it. If I get him a mini to ride trail with me I don't think I can even get a front brake for it. Even if you are willing to pony up for a kids bike that would do trials you are limited to a tank like the Stollen Nipper or building something out of something else, or if you know where to look and don't mind spending the money a Monty.

[bouncingbabyboy]

I think if the sport is going to go anywhere a real effort needs to be made to organize an event in the X games. There needs to be a major push at that event to promote a mainstream bike company (or a few) to showcase trials bikes. Off the top of my head I would say Giant STP and Specialized P1. There needs to be some guys in the event on some high BB zero seat tube rad bikes like last years Adamant, a Zoo or Koxx Derangboy that will get people talking. And they need to show someone take a kid who doesn't do trials and teach him something. Get him to ride across a little teter totter so people get the idea that this is real and can be done.

Then we need to get a mainstream bike company to make a $300 or less kids trials bike. Maybe 15 inch wheels. Something like the 205pr but with two wheels the same size so it is easier for any numskull to maintain. We need to show kids riding (and promoting) the crappy little rails that they sell at ToysRus for skateboarding as trials obstacles.

[bouncingbabyboy]

Next someone needs to come up with a quick way to get from this is a bike to your first pedal kick. If you could come up with a way to teach any old kid how to get up and do one good trick then you could sell trials. Start a camp. Get kids to come for the summer, hang out and play on bikes. I could sell that.

[Fred Savage]

Since starting this post I've read the replies with great intrest.

On Sunday we held one of our most successful events ever, at the U.K.'s top venue, Addingham Moorside.

Addingham was the scene of the 05 WBC U.K. round, Sundays event was organised by the same team.

Here are some great action shots;

http://www.photos-dsb.co.uk/Addingham%20Moorside%20National%20Bike%20Trial%202 007/index.htm

[mxeddiejo]

I would like to construct a simple metal building on my property to provide basic free lodging and then construct a trials park to host competitions along with everday riding however, I'm the only rider in town and other than one rider approx an hour away, I don't think there's anyone else within 5 hours... at least none communicating on the forum.

At times, I feel like moving forward with the plan regardless, but part of me... and certainly my family think otherwise when considering the odds of other riders showing up. I am less than 1 mile from the newest and largest shopping complex in the area, thus easy access to major restaurants, etc. I'm surrounded by upscale housing... soon to have 376 new houses filling the area around my 4.5 acres. In short, it's a nice area, which I think would help the cause. I currently have a small mx track, which I've told my friends will go bye-bye as soon as all the neighbors move in. Since my property will remain non-city, I will still have quite a bit of freedom other than huge dust clouds and loud 2/4 stroke motors. I love hosting and enjoy taking care of others, which currently consists of taking pics/vids and my son and I riding our quad around the track passing our bottled water to the various riders. We do make the quad guys perform some trials stuff. I would love to have the same setup for trials bikers with the addition of lodging and some meals. I currently have bunches of logs and several spools/platforms that make up my trials area in the middle of the mx track, however I don't have rocks... yet. I like the idea of having themed (similar materials) sections, lik eyou see in the Euro comps. There's also a cool park (with rocks) nearby which would make for great off-site group rides.

Anyway, I don't have much money and really don't know when I'd be able to afford the building, but then again, it's a matter of motivation and the lack of riders doesn't help.

[AndyT]

if you build it they will come.










unless you are talking about building a trials park in america :o