lacing with 4x

[Henri]

Hi. So I got wrong sizes spokes, about 1 cm longer. I tried to lace it on a 32 hole rim with 3x, but it doesn't work. Can it be done with 4x and how? Any tutorial pages?

[modtire]

1 cm is too much, it won't work either, get 'em cut at a shop

[free_rideman]

speaking of 4x, is it any good?

May someone explain where this pattern could be used.

[Elan]

just ge the right spokes, thye cost like $1.00

[trialsrider50]

i used to have 4x for the same reason that I ordered the wrong size. pretty much overkill. especially for mod. mods should run 2x at most. 3x if you just can't stand the idea of 2x. but never 4x.

stock. i'd run 3x rear and 2x or 1x front but 4x is just useless.

[WhiteRavenKS]

mod wheels 2x eh? i somehow find that to be hooey.

lace your stuff 3x if it's a drive side or a disk side. only lace your stuff radial if you're into fooling yourself that it's saving you weight and making you a better rider. lace your stuff 2x if you are into waisting your time. lace your stuff 4x if you have 48 spokes... maybe, or never. actually never.

[mikeschiavone]

3x. It's the gold standard.

As for the long spokes, if you can't afford to return the unused spokes in exchange for the correct size, look into twisting your spokes. I'd only recommend it if you're a decent wheelbuilder, and it's simply to hold you over until you get your correct size spokes. 1cm too long should enable you to do a full twist at the last spoke instersection.

[Kibble Fat]

my X-alp is radial up front. It is ghetto fabulous :wiggle:

[mekanic305]

I got 3x front and rear on my mod...it's never let me down but I still have to tru the back occasionally which makes me think that 3x maybe better.

Can anyone else offer advice on that? Does a wheel stay tru better/longer with higher cross patterns? Common logic tells me yes, but I could certainly be wrong.

[stinkybastard]

A few factors come into play with repeated truing. Inadequete tension, lack of spoke prep, how hard you ride. All of the above effect all wheels regardless of cross patterns. A multi cross spoke maintaining true depends on the quality of build, its not the quantity, its quality.
As far as this thread, for the menial gains in overall strength(32h vs 36h) you lose some due to longer spokes, lil extra weight.

[trials_stud]

I agree with stickbastard, a quality build is the most improtant part.

[johnglazer]

my X-alp is radial up front. It is ghetto fabulous :wiggle:

My X-Lite was radial up front. The rear non-drive side was radial and the drive side was 3x. Now the whole rear wheel is 3x.

[THE MANGLER]

4x Is A Much Weaker Set Up. As Mentioned Above, The Longer Spokes Translate Directly Into Less Strength. There Is More Flex, And More Weight. Buy New Spokes.

[johnglazer]

4x Is A Much Weaker Set Up. As Mentioned Above, The Longer Spokes Translate Directly Into Less Strength. There Is More Flex, And More Weight. Buy New Spokes.

I thought the whole point of 4x was to be stronger. Are you sure that the slight increase in length compromises the strength more than the extra cross helps? So does that mean that radial or 2x the strongest? I disagree.

[stinkybastard]

I thought the whole point of 4x was to be stronger. Are you sure that the slight increase in length compromises the strength more than the extra cross helps? So does that mean that radial or 2x the strongest? I disagree.

I see your point, however there is a limit to the amount of spoke crosses necessary for a good wheel. yes shorter spokes in theory are stronger than longer, however to achieve a balance of strength/weight without compromising lateral/radial integrity has already been proven over time with 3x on 32h rims. If what you think may be correct, try em out. there are oodles of voodoo spoke lacing methods to try out...Many use 3x cause its proven to work, and takes little time to complete(compared to 4x). Also you may get spoke overlap on the hub flange making it a bitch to replace spokes(4x).

[johnglazer]

That makes a lot more sense to me. Thanks

[Don Coyote]

I thought the whole point of 4x was to be stronger. Are you sure that the slight increase in length compromises the strength more than the extra cross helps? So does that mean that radial or 2x the strongest? I disagree.

It might depend on what "strength" is. A 4x wheel will be slightly less rigid laterally, but more rigid torsionally, and less subject to flange breakage. So if strength is "resistance to sideways deflection", yes, a radial wheel will be stronger than a 4x.

But I would say this is largely irrelevant in this case. Henri I very much doubt you can physically build your 32 hole wheel 4x. The spoke will be well past 90 degrees at the flange, so much so I suspect you will hit the elbow of the next spoke. If you want to try it, lace the key spoke and first set just like 3x, lace the second set on the other side of the wheel just like 3x, but when lacing the last two sets just remember that each spoke you lace must cross 4 other spokes, be interlaced with the last spoke it crosses, and be in the second hole in the rim from the last one it crosses. You'll need to put all the remaining spokes in the hub before lacing the crossing sets, because the holes in the hub will be covered by other spokes once the pattern is started.

Dunno if that makes any sense.

Edit: Forgot: For a 26" wheel 4x, yes your 1cm too long spokes will be close enough to work, excluding the other problems already mentioned.

[Don Coyote]

Freerideman it'd typically be used on high spoke count wheels, where lower crosses are close to radial. 36 conceivably, but 40 and up. Typically touring tandems, with high drivetrain torque and high load.

[Henri]

i will try to lace it 4x and if it won't work i will get new spokes.

thanks for the help.

[THE MANGLER]

All I Know Is; After 20 Years Of Riding Bikes And Lacing Wheels, The Only Ones That Do Not Blow Apart Are 3x.

[tomacropod]

None of my wheels blow apart except when rims fail, and I lace radial, 1x, 2x and 3x depending on the circumstances. 4x is possible for 36h and over spoke counts, but was typically used in the past with low quality spokes and rims only. You never saw it on quality wheels.

If I was building a 48h wheel I would use 4x. What people fail to realise is that the number of crosses in itself is not important (as there is still only one point of contact at the final cross), it's the angle at which a spoke leaves a hub flange which will determine the characteristics of that wheel.

- Joel

[mekanic305]

non quality build explains my problem with constant/multiple truing. I built it myself and did the best I could and it works but I could proly learn a little more and get it better...I'll need a new rim soon anyways and try it then.

[lucky13]

http://www.amazon.com/Bicycle-Wheel-3rd-Jobst-Brandt/dp/0960723668

/thread

[spoke2570]

http://www.amazon.com/Bicycle-Wheel-3rd-Jobst-Brandt/dp/0960723668

/thread


Certainly a must read!

Most public libraries (that I have seen) have it as well.

pete b

[desvio2000]

4 cross makes the spokes on to steep of an angle. When ppl say 4X sometimes they mean there is a gap of 4 holes on the flange between each cross, so its kinda like every 4th spoke crosses. If they are a cm too long you cant do anything except get the right size im sorry.