wtf is up with koxx?

[kobrakai]

this has been bugging me for a while now - why, when everyone else is offering wicked frames for a reasonable price, is koxx making their frames more and more expensive?

for instance, the levelboss was expensive. then there was the xtp. then the vracing, and now the koxxboxx (i havn't seen the price for it, but i'm sure it's huge).

i ride a levelboss with a tonne of tryall parts on it. i like koxx. however, when it comes time to replace my frame (soon), i don't think it'll be a koxx. i can't justify spending over a grand on a frame when i can get something else for way less. that's my two cents.

does anyone have any insight on this?

[Noel]

the only reason i can guess why there frames cost so much would be to support the team riders. i may be wrong but those that have more of an insight can give you a better explaination.

it could also be that they have the best team and they know people will buy whatever the best riders are riding. who know.

[hophopsnap]

cause Koxx ain't dengy!!

[kobrakai]

good point on the team support, i hadn't really thought of that.

koxx has been great at bringing new ideas to trials, i mean they pioneered modern geometry with the levelboss, and brought us cnc'd frame parts, they helped develop the mono-trials brake, and the list goes on. and yeah, they support a lot of the top riders in the world.

it just seems that the frame prices keep going up and up. like the koxxboxx. i don't want some stupid monocoq frame. it's great that they have their flagship promodels for us to drool over, but why not offer a frame that is competitive with what's out there? normal tubes? they have bastardized the levelboss. why wouldn't they update the geo on the levelboss, and try to compete with echo? you see a lot more people riding echos than koxx simply because they are cheaper and practically just as good.

[kobrakai]

cause Koxx ain't dengy!!

i still won't buy a deng bike. it's a matter of principle.

[sethman]

i dont know. i personaly would love to have an xtp but 600 bucks for it ? i can buy a (new) frame and wheelset for that much.your absolutley right. i wanted to ask that also but since i aint been doin trials too long(two years) i thought that the assholes on this site would spit in my face and say "duh ,what are you retarded or something?"and then tell me the reason.i dont know. but i think , and you gotta keep this down,but i think that koxx is taking over the world. jk . i honestly dont know why they charge that much for a frame. what i say is fuck that shit . if they wanna get 800 bucks for a frame then they can get it from someone else.:rant:

oh well.

sethman

[MIKE1968]

because people still pay that much.



if they weren't selling at that price , they wouldn't be at that price.

[carnagr]

i dont know. i personaly would love to have an xtp but 600 bucks for it ? i can buy a (new) frame and wheelset for that much.your absolutley right. i wanted to ask that also but since i aint been doin trials too long(two years) i thought that the assholes on this site would spit in my face and say "duh ,what are you retarded or something?"and then tell me the reason.i dont know. but i think , and you gotta keep this down,but i think that koxx is taking over the world. jk . i honestly dont know why they charge that much for a frame. what i say is fuck that shit . if they wanna get 800 bucks for a frame then they can get it from someone else.:rant:

oh well.

sethman

$600 XTP :hahano: They retail somewhere in the range of $1100.

[hello?]

because people still pay that much.



if they weren't selling at that price , they wouldn't be at that price.

exactly
plus theres a lot of people in paris and europe that are mainly riding koxx bikes
north america is only a small portion of it

[sethman]

oh , my bad , i was thinkin of the levelboss, at trialsin its (only) 650 i believe. and i just checked out trialsin and i guess they are on sale for 950 .sorry bout that.

sethman

[sethman]

very true. good thing i said "but i dont know " im my post . and i guess your right andrew. if the people that actualy have 1000 bucks to spend on a frame didnt buy then koxx wouldnt be sellin that high. i just hope they come with a 10 year warranty if they price em that high.

sethman

[MIKE1968]

The majority of people who really "need" the xtp (A lightwieght competition frame, meant to be used for one season) don't pay full retail...


regular folks will see the good riders on the XTP and if they can't buy the XTP they can at least afford a level boss, I doubt koxx makes most of their money off the top of the line frames....overpriced lower model frames and parts are much more important to their economic gain.

[sethman]

still dude. the levelboss and the team are practicly the same thing.and theres a 200 dollar price difference.thats all im sayin.

[Elan]

1: an importer for anything made in asia can charge pretty much whatever they want, an echo frame at cost is around $BLAH including shipping. a koxx levelboss at dealer cost including shipping is about twice that. dollar conversion sucks.

2: imo the biggest reason koxx sells for so much is beause as long as they keep selling anything, they dont care. they are french.

[sethman]

im still learning abbreviations. imo?

[Elan]

in my opinion

[sethman]

thank you sir.

[mcdub]

because people still pay that much.



if they weren't selling at that price , they wouldn't be at that price.


zing

[jmlora]

high prices are the reason why trials is such a small sport, or else we'd be like bmx!

besides, high prices also stand for new and stronger materials (K ALONE), R&D, the best trials team in the world, awesome facilities, and all the other stuff the have. You don't see Echo Days, Zhi Days or stuff like that.

IMO

[Guss78]

But if you sell 1200 echos at $400 = $480,000

and if you sell 500 Koxx at $1000 = $500,000

Just an example, those numbers are not net profit to the maker obviously, but with a greater volume of Deng bikes being sold, he should be making just as much as Koxx.

I think Koxx just tries to be exclusive.

[MIKE1968]

high prices are the reason why trials is such a small sport, or else we'd be like bmx!




Not at all. Trials stuff is cheap as dirt, there are many more serious factors as to why trials is a small sport.

[va_tick]

Koxx seams to me to have developed a reputation in europe much like the Trek's, Gary Fishers, and GT's of the states. You look and see on their site that they've penetrated several markets in the bike world.....this allows them to price the way they do.......along with the other statements from above....its all relative........but no matter what you have a choice not to buy from them if you dont want to!!!!!!

[Patrick]

I just paid full retail for an xtp:luke:

[va_tick]

baller!

[mikeschiavone]

Cost of bicycles. Welcome to the retail side of things. You have to keep in mind that anybody that touches that frame, from start at the drawing board to the end user/shipment, increases the cost of the frame. We're not going to go in depth about the cost of frames, but understand that you're not paying for just the frame material, you're paying for every set of hands, and their respective premium, that touches the frame before the end user does.

Now, I'm not too familiar with Echo as a company, but it sounds like they're tied into the actual factory. In Koxx's case, you have a seperate company that needs to pay to use the factory and build the bikes. Already, the cost to build the Koxx is more because of the overhead Koxx incurs.

So, at this point Echo just pays for the material and minimal overhead, where as Koxx has to pay for slightly more overhead AND that premium to have the bikes built at the factory. And, after they're built, Koxx has to pay an arm and a leg to ship them out as opposed to Echo who can keep them at the factory.

Now, add into the fray the cost of research and development. We'll add team rider salaries into this cost. I'm not familiar, at all, with what euro pros can ask for monetarily from their sponsor, but I'm going to guess at least 10K. Multiply that by, say 5, and that's a pretty chunk of change that adds to the overhead.

In the end:
Koxx: Much larger overhead (RD, payroll, fixed operating expenses [lease, utilities, insurance]), shipping, QA, and the numerous dealers worldwide (which probably increase the cost %30 (unfairly low in the cycling industry!))

Echo: Small overhead, direct shipping, and dealers that are capable of recieving shipment direct from factory.

Before we go any further, this is JUST A GUESS! I have no idea at all what the actual costs are! My assumption is that Deng keeps everything in house in a country that costs pennies (compared to the EU and NA.) Koxx has a lot more going.

I've never owned a Koxx, but I would really like to. I've ridden mostly Deng frames and have never had a problem!

[va_tick]

econ 101 baby!

[kobrakai]

haha, i knew i was opening a can of worms when i started this thread :run:

[lucky13]

Cost of bicycles. Welcome to the retail side of things. You have to keep in mind that anybody that touches that frame, from start at the drawing board to the end user/shipment, increases the cost of the frame. We're not going to go in depth about the cost of frames, but understand that you're not paying for just the frame material, you're paying for every set of hands, and their respective premium, that touches the frame before the end user does.

Now, I'm not too familiar with Echo as a company, but it sounds like they're tied into the actual factory. In Koxx's case, you have a seperate company that needs to pay to use the factory and build the bikes. Already, the cost to build the Koxx is more because of the overhead Koxx incurs.

So, at this point Echo just pays for the material and minimal overhead, where as Koxx has to pay for slightly more overhead AND that premium to have the bikes built at the factory. And, after they're built, Koxx has to pay an arm and a leg to ship them out as opposed to Echo who can keep them at the factory.

Now, add into the fray the cost of research and development. We'll add team rider salaries into this cost. I'm not familiar, at all, with what euro pros can ask for monetarily from their sponsor, but I'm going to guess at least 10K. Multiply that by, say 5, and that's a pretty chunk of change that adds to the overhead.

In the end:
Koxx: Much larger overhead (RD, payroll, fixed operating expenses [lease, utilities, insurance]), shipping, QA, and the numerous dealers worldwide (which probably increase the cost %30 (unfairly low in the cycling industry!))

Echo: Small overhead, direct shipping, and dealers that are capable of recieving shipment direct from factory.

Before we go any further, this is JUST A GUESS! I have no idea at all what the actual costs are! My assumption is that Deng keeps everything in house in a country that costs pennies (compared to the EU and NA.) Koxx has a lot more going.

I've never owned a Koxx, but I would really like to. I've ridden mostly Deng frames and have never had a problem!

Um, no. The emperor has no clothes and his penis is waggin' in the wind.

[Elan]

I think Koxx just tries to be exclusive.
well said

[RT Wolf]

Business strategy can be really complicated. They could be raising prices cause their costs are higher, they ocul dbe raising prices cause it's part of a business strategy of monopolizing the higher end of trials bikes, they could be raising prices cause they wnat ebtter margins on their bikes. Or they could have no idea of business strategy and coudl jsut be raising prices to make more money. Without knowing/talking to the actual guys at Koxx, you can only speculate.

At any rate, as long as there are people willing to pay for their bikes, they'll be around.

[MIKE1968]

I've had many koxx bikes and many echo bikes, I don't know why but all my koxx have ridden 3x as well as the echo/zoos.

[lucky13]

I won't own one on principle. :momaru:

The old levelboss is the only Koxx I've ever come close to considering, and even that is overpriced by a longshot for the fact that IT"S AN ALUMINUM FRAME MADE IN CHINA.

[va_tick]

I won't own one on principle. :momaru:

IT"S AN ALUMINUM FRAME MADE IN CHINA.


How lame...I didnt know that :( .

[Elan]

I've had many koxx bikes and many echo bikes, I don't know why but all my koxx have ridden 3x as well as the echo/zoos.


mine as well. :wiggle: that said, its sad when you can pay retail for a echo frame and have it be $200 than when you imported koxx frames and paid $650 dealer cost for your own xtp. if anyone says its placebo effect i will come to their house and kick them square in the nuts.

[va_tick]

placebo effect :momaru:

[MIKE1968]

i went from koxx lb 1065 - 1100 - xtp - echo pure - zoo pitbull - zhi prototype then back to my old 1100 (switched owneres). They just ride better :/

[Elan]

i just went from otn to biketrials.com, its like a ghost town over there.

[pav]

maybe koxx is like the ferarri of trials?
too bad i dont like ferarri, but koxx is alright i guess.

But if you arnt a school boy and work a wee bit of hours a week, even for me on holiday work while im not at uni, after a weeks work, i can afford an echo, after 2 or so more weeks, i can afford a koxx, so really, its not that much for those who are working.

[MIKE1968]

Or if you ball hard, just don't go out for one or two nights and you'll have enough duckeys for an echo.

[mcdub]

You mean lamborghini.

People who buy ferrari ( minus the enzo and its hard to buy one you cant just show up with dorrahs and say I wan a enzo,they will do a backround check of all the ferraris youve owned in the past and how meny you have wrecked and so on.They refuse allot of the offers )

So yeah people who buy ferraris buy them only because they cannot afford lamborghinis.

"ferrari drivers but your hands in the air,ferrari drivers, your all a bunch of fucking wankers"

[Keith Courage]

i just went from otn to biketrials.com, its like a ghost town over there.

:bowrofl:
Funny

[Chris]

Some years ago, when a levelboss was the "elite" frame, the prices were more or less on the Echo level. These days frames were like 600-700 Euros or whatever.
In the past few years, when all the Deng stuff, i.e. Zoo, Adamant, GU etc. came out - they dropped the prices down to 300-400 Euros, or even less. Whereas Koxx almost doubled the prices, when introducing the promodel frames.
From there on, Koxx and Deng went two different ways, imo. Nowadays Deng is more or less focused on "amateurs" or just on people who like to build up colorful, low-budget bikes, without accepting compromise (strength etc.).
I mean you hardly see any Deng bikes at international comps. Whereas Koxx is focused on serious competition, such as Monty. If Koxx would sell their frames for the price of an Echo, it wouldn't fit to their "serious comp" image they try to represent.

As high prices rarely equal to high quality, it must be something different. So I'd say it's their "serious comp" image and their aim to offer lightweight comp frames, ridden by extremely skilled and successfull pro riders. And this leeds to the simple fact:

They still sell their stuff, because they CAN. Image sells!

I mean hardly anyone would buy an xtp or the new koxx boxx, until they've seen Hermance doing massive sidehops with it. You go like
"That frame is heavily overpriced and looks ugly as shit.. but wait, that frame must be awesome, 'cause Vincent sidehops even higher now.. I'll buy it!"

I mean koxx wouldn't sell that much frames if they hadn't the best riders in the world, which is awesome for promoting their stuff!
Deng's stuff is just different, he doesn't need pro riders. His frames are way cheaper and you can customize a lot more - that sells!

[flixlee]

TVR > Ferrari or Lamborghini. But that's mostly because I have one.
I like Koxx bikes because they are so different from one another and the ones I have ridden feel great. I would love to see them build sturdier frames using promodel geometry though.

[kobrakai]

I would love to see them build sturdier frames using promodel geometry though.

ditto

[jesleepark]

sorry about asking this but what really good riders still ride with koxx. I know iv heard of alot of good riders starting ther own company or going to ride with someone else. I dont know if koxx pays as much for ther team as they used to.

[Noel]

sorry about asking this but what really good riders still ride with koxx. I know iv heard of alot of good riders starting ther own company or going to ride with someone else. I dont know if koxx pays as much for ther team as they used to.

Vincent Hermance, Benito Ros, Marco Hoesel, the Coustelliers, and a few more.

[stocktrials]

i think Chris is right.

koxx might have high prices for image and a different perception of value
(ie strength, world class etc)

[TRA]

Whenever i have commented about them making tougher less pricey frames they say stuff as " Its like a ferrari, top model" yadda.. :p

But monty isnt any cheaper is it ? check prices for theyr new ti models! :O

[kobrakai]

ooh, some real insight. thanks TRA.

[pav]

Ferarri is shit! They are for wankers!!

Get a lamborghini!

[KyleT]

How about French patriotism? Having never been to France, I can't honestly comment on the ratio of Koxx bikes to those produced in other countries, but I'm pretty sure the French police cruise around in Peugeots. Same principle applies.

[rush]

Kyleoutoffuckingnowhere.jpg

:h5:

[mcdub]

IT is thow.

ITs like rich guys in germany.First thing on there list is porsche.If they want a ferrari or a lamborghini.Lambo comes first because VAG owns them.

VAG FTW

[lucky13]

How about French patriotism? Having never been to France, I can't honestly comment on the ratio of Koxx bikes to those produced in other countries, but I'm pretty sure the French police cruise around in Peugeots. Same principle applies.

Yup,.. they wave thier red white and blue prouder then some of us europhites do of our own.

Lesson to be learned.

[Chris]

IT is thow.

ITs like rich guys in germany.First thing on there list is porsche.If they want a ferrari or a lamborghini.Lambo comes first because VAG owns them.

VAG FTW

Never heard of VAG, is that short for Vagina? :hsugh:

[Elan]

Never heard of VAG, is that short for Vagina? :hsugh:
youre german, but are you serious? :hsugh:

[Chris]

I'm not a car freak, sorry :hs:

[MIKE1968]

:rofl:

[Chris]

lol I got it! It's VW AG, and that's what I've already heard. But not VAG... hence my confusion :greddy:

mcdub = VW = VAG :bigthumb:

[MIKE1968]

Volkswagen, abgekürzt VW, ist Europas größter Automobilhersteller (http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automobilhersteller) mit Sitz in Wolfsburg (http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolfsburg), Niedersachsen (http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niedersachsen). Der offizielle Name ist Volkswagen AG (abgekürzt VW AG). Zum Volkswagen-Konzern gehören die Marken Audi (http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audi), Bentley (http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bentley), Bugatti (http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bugatti), Lamborghini (http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lamborghini), SEAT (http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/SEAT), Škoda (http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C5%A0koda_Auto), Volkswagen (http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen) und Volkswagen Nutzfahrzeuge (http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_Nutzfahrzeuge). Allein in Deutschland gibt es neun Volkswagenwerke, neben dem VW-Stammwerk in Wolfsburg (http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagenwerk_Wolfsburg) beispielsweise das Volkswagenwerk Kassel (http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagenwerk_Kassel).

[Chris]

:werd: wiki ftw. That's where I got it from...

[KyleT]

Kyleoutoffuckingnowhere.jpg

:h5:

Yeah i finally remembered that threads other than "Adelaide ride organisation" exist :x:

[trialsin usa]

This nearly rivals the ever so stimulating Magura vrs V-brake debate.

Prices on some bikes are high because there is some dark evil Bush-capitalist kabal (kabala?!) that keeps people like me living the high and mighty lifestyle we do.

Prices on some bike things are low because there is some dark evil Mao-socialist plot to use the poor on a level not seen since "the great leap forward".

Now that you all know the deep dark secrets of pricing in the bike world, could this thread be cast to the same ash heap as Jim Careys acting skills.

Thank you.

[va_tick]

You mean lamborghini.

People who buy ferrari ( minus the enzo and its hard to buy one you cant just show up with dorrahs and say I wan a enzo,they will do a backround check of all the ferraris youve owned in the past and how meny you have wrecked and so on.They refuse allot of the offers )

So yeah people who buy ferraris buy them only because they cannot afford lamborghinis.

"ferrari drivers but your hands in the air,ferrari drivers, your all a bunch of fucking wankers"

Yeah beacuse Lambo has such a long racing heritage.....they were once owned by chrysler....their complete shit compared to a Ferrari...I would'nt expect such ignorance from such a car buff :mad: !

[trialsrider50]

This nearly rivals the ever so stimulating Magura vrs V-brake debate.

Prices on some bikes are high because there is some dark evil Bush-capitalist kabal (kabala?!) that keeps people like me living the high and mighty lifestyle we do.

Prices on some bike things are low because there is some dark evil Mao-socialist plot to use the poor on a level not seen since "the great leap forward".

Now that you all know the deep dark secrets of pricing in the bike world, could this thread be cast to the same ash heap as Jim Careys acting skills.

Thank you.

interpretation:

because

[Bírre]

ferrari, lamborgini, whatever.. i´m from sweden, i ride a volvo like 90% other swedes, even thoug mine got 320hp but anyways..

all italian sportscars ( or others aswell for that matter) get eaten by swedish super car koenigsegg....

the end

[va_tick]

How many F1 cars from Sweeden have won an FIA championship?

[Bírre]

How many F1 cars from Sweeden have won an FIA championship?

was the subject street legal cars or racecars you can never buy?

[Acolyte]

swedish super car koenigsegg....

the end

Bugatti Veyron? 1001 Horsies can't be wrong.

[MIKE1968]

Bugatti Veyron? 1001 Horsies can't be wrong.


VAG :o

[Chris]

VAG :o

VW AG! :rofl:

[Acolyte]

Koxx + VAG = Hijacked thread?

I got lost after the swedish supercar:dunno:

[Bírre]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/topgear/powerlaps.shtml

[Bírre]

Bugatti Veyron? 1001 Horsies can't be wrong.

somehow americans are al about power.. what about handling? what have been something of a trademark for ameracan cars? much power, less handling? anyone recognize?

[Acolyte]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/topgear/powerlaps.shtml

Bugatti Veyron?

I'm just asking. Americans crazy about a Bugatti powerhouse? NOT made by an American.

You could make fun of the Viper or something, but Bugatti isn't American.

[Bírre]

I'm just asking. Americans crazy about a Bugatti powerhouse? NOT made by an American.

You could make fun of the Viper or something, but Bugatti isn't American.

didn´t claim it was american, just that americans like big amounts of horsepower... and that it doesn´t mean that it´s the way to go to make tha fastest car..

[va_tick]

Ferrari isnt american either....and I'm no fan of the traditional american muscle aka vipers and such.......this thread has definately been hijacked to the fullest..........god why are koxx so much money??

[Acolyte]

didn´t claim it was american, just that americans like big amounts of horsepower... and that it doesn´t mean that it´s the way to go to make tha fastest car..

I wasn't gonna post all the specs, it wouldn't be useful. Horsepower is a quick way to say "this thing has huge nuts" without getting really technical. I'm not that "American".

So Koxx bikes man, yeah...

[MIKE1968]

my 890 hp chevelle crushes your little volvo

[RT Wolf]

You have to ask yourself, "What would Jesus drive?" He'd drive a mothafuckin' HUMMER, BITCHES.

[Elan]

somehow americans are al about power.. what about handling? what have been something of a trademark for ameracan cars? much power, less handling? anyone recognize?


american motor sports are all about going left for 200 miles or going straight for 1/4 mile. sometimes about going as fast as possible in a 5000lb, 800hp pick-up truck with 2-3 feet of suspension travel on both ends. but we are getting better. the new corvette z06 is putting down lap times close to ferraris, and the viper is coming closer to supercar status every 10 years. after all that is said though, both those cars still use heavy, outdated pushrod engines, that require engines of 6.0 liters and above to make 500hp, when companies like honda can make a phenomenal 250hp with a NA 2.0l engine, and koenigsegg has produce 800 hp out of an engine ford can only make 500 with, then you have ferrari, they can make 800hp with a NA 6.2 liter engine. however, no motorcar in the world can compare to a top fuel dragster making near 8000hp and 5000 ft-lb torque, all coming from a 1960's based 8.2L american pushrod engine. the usa just doesnt get taxed on engine displacement, unfortunately. but i do love my big block ford, haha.

[Acolyte]

You have to ask yourself, "What would Jesus drive?" He'd drive a mothafuckin' HUMMER, BITCHES.

"Jesus Christ!"

"What?"

"Get the Escalade, we're out of here!"

[MIKE1968]

american motor sports are all about going left for 200 miles or going straight for 1/4 mile. sometimes about going as fast as possible in a 5000lb, 800hp pick-up truck with 2-3 feet of suspension travel on both ends. but we are getting better. the new corvette z06 is putting down lap times close to ferraris, and the viper is coming closer to supercar status every 10 years. after all that is said though, both those cars still use heavy, outdated pushrod engines, that require engines of 6.0 liters and above to make 500hp, when companies like honda can make a phenomenal 250hp with a NA 2.0l engine, and koenigsegg has produce 800 hp out of an engine ford can only make 500 with, then you have ferrari, they can make 800hp with a NA 6.2 liter engine. however, no motorcar in the world can compare to a top fuel dragster making near 8000hp and 5000 ft-lb torque, all coming from a 1960's based 8.2L american pushrod engine. the usa just doesnt get taxed on engine displacement, unfortunately. but i do love my big block ford, haha.

i thought that was going to end differently

[Elan]

i thought i would never stop typing and just shut up already, but i didnt

[pav]

american motor sports are all about going left for 200 miles or going straight for 1/4 mile.

Thats what makes them shit and boring.

Best engines = M3 3.2L and M5 5.0L (they won all the awards in their categories at the world engine of the year awards consecutively since their release)

The 3.2L has 350 bhp and revs to 8000 RPM stock, what more could you want it life? And the car that its in Corners! Sounds better than V8 muscle anyway IMO, I'm bored of that sound because anyone can achieve it these days, and you get heaps of bogans and dumb wogs with it here so it ruins the specialness in it.

[Elan]

im not a big bmw follower, but that is impressive.

[va_tick]

m-series= great performance......also have representation in F1

[MIKE1968]

my 1.8 liter won best engine like 29 years in a row.

[Elan]

http://www.ukintpress.com/engineoftheyear/winners/2_25.html

[pav]

Oh also to remmeber that the 3.2L straight 6 is 7 years old this year too, its old news for BMW :S

[Elan]

Oh also to remmeber that the 3.2L straight 6 is 7 years old this year too, its old news for BMW :S
m30? one of my all time favorites is the e30 m3, best looking car ever.

[mikeschiavone]

My brother has an M3 lightweight; pretty damn fast.

Back to Koxx charging too much money

[Elan]

My brother has an M3 lightweight; pretty damn fast.

Back to Koxx charging too much money

im soo over that like 2 years ago

[pav]

The engine i talk about is in the current E46 but it was so good they moved it into all the Z4 M models.
I love all the old 3 series, E30 is aweosme though, It looks so cool for such an old car!
I had no idea how good BMW M's were till I got taken around a racetrack in an M3 and it was the best thing ever, they have some pretty nuts cars! Like the M5, which is a 4 door family car which goes like a Gallardo!

[mcdub]

ferrari, lamborgini, whatever.. i´m from sweden, i ride a volvo like 90% other swedes, even thoug mine got 320hp but anyways..

all italian sportscars ( or others aswell for that matter) get eaten by swedish super car koenigsegg....

the end

Wasn't there one in the gumball and half the time it was broken down ??? :momaru:

Ferrari is lame to me,minus the f40lm.
Deal with my opinion.

The only bimmer I'd ever own would be a e30 m3.I saw a vid rencently that I linked to crazed bimmer fan jk of a few e30's with turbo'd m5 v8's. Fast like a mother fucker.



PAV
didn't the boxer sti motor win in 06 :momaru: :momaru: :momaru:

VAG OWNS ALL
cgt madness
http://videos.streetfire.net/video/8ab09067-c2f4-4e2d-aef5-98b00055ca8d.htm

[pav]

PAV
didn't the boxer sti motor win in 06 :momaru: :momaru: :momaru:


It won its category, 2-2.5 or 2-3.0 L category or something.
Check out:
Best Performance
Best 3-4 L
Best 4L +

Theres more too, I cant remember them though

[toyota200x]

Back to the topic please..............:)

[pav]

Koxx are shit. Unless your gay.

[va_tick]

m30? one of my all time favorites is the e30 m3, best looking car ever.

JACKPOT! Used a bad ass four banger too!

[Diederik]

Well, Koxx has been the most innovative brand for as long as I know. They have a few designers and engineers who work fulltime to come up with new (not necessarily better) solutions all the time:
Long wheelbase, fixed rear hub, high bb, CNC yoke, funky headtubes, hydroforming.... isnt it koxx that introduced all these things (properly) to biketrials?

After production in China, all koxx stuff is sent to France to be stocked and distributed from there. (frames for japan are shipped from france!)
Koxx is a serious company; I believe it employs about 25 people fulltime while they don't even have their own production unit.

Deng's main activity is stealing ideas from others, which saves alot of development costs :Sonic:; and even then you could have 20 Chinese engineers working for you for the price of 1 French engineer.

I'm not saying that Koxx frames aren't overpriced, but echo frames might even be a lot more overpriced than koxx frames, even if they cost half as much.

And saying that koxx has only been raising the price of the frames is not really fair.. Apart from the high end promodels, they have also launched the cheaper Yaabaa series (not that i like them) which allow you to enter the sport at a reasonable price. but the levelboss definately needs an update...

Monty is probably the only company that is comparable to koxx and their products aren't cheap either.

hey, i didn't ask you to read this so don't blame me for waisting your time :Wavey:

[pav]

Zoo Pitbull was first frame I know of to be released with a bottom bracked higher than 0mm.

[Diederik]

The Megamo Equip Pro had a positive BB rise

The Vinco promodel was the first 'very high bb' bike wasn't it.

[Chris]

I'd say the high bb era actually started with the release of the vinco frame. Then the others followed.
It was pretty cool, when all the promodel frames such as Vinco, Caisso, Belaey etc. were shown to the public. That was during he Koxx Days, if I remember right. Each of them was almost twice as expensive as the other frames on the market. But people still bought them.

[TRA]

Deng got the idea of high BB from the Vinco frame

[pav]

I think I've noticed that the better riders here don't mind koxx so much?

I saw on some random bike sales site that Monty and higher end Koxx models were listed under "Professional" Trials bikes, where as others were listed under "recreational" and "amateur"

Heaps of people complain about koxx rims but I reakon that they are alright and you must be pretty shit, unsmooth or go ridiculously massive to have any problems with them, mine was damaged in shipping and I've still had no problems with it.

[Rudy]

People are willing to pay for what they think they are getting, whether or not they actually are.

A company can't charge extra for their products, and continue to sell them, because they run inefficiently.

A company can charge extra for their products, and continue to sell them because it is a superior product.

[FoxRacer]

Now that's some decent bollocks you are saying!:p

The cost of frames is almost the same for every model. And the bigger price is just the result of avarice I'd say. Almost every rider in France rides koxx and this the biggest market for koxx! If we would take a look what people ride in other countries it would be mostly echo. And excuse that they keep all the stuff in France is no excuse e.g. Levelboss frame in factory cost around 20-30$ if we take full container and of course we have to! After all extra fees Koxx sells parts to dealers at about half of the RRP, so they do earn a lot on parts and I'm pretty sure it's not because they have to pay theirs team members. Deng earns a lot less on his frames... And he also have to keep his warehouse, which isn't small. Their (koxx) parts aren't evenly better compared to echo and so... Most of parts haven't changed in years and I'd say there is a lot to change in them! I have koxx lb frame and it was pretty nice compared to my customade Mielec but after changing to echo control. I just said to myself "WTF I was doing all this year on that frame?!:O". Huge improvement after change...

Statement that Echo parts are low-end parts is just fucking untrue. After all they both are from same factory!

Koxx is maybe more pro because of weight of his frames, but that's all...Maybe Echo is heavier, but they give you better choice of what geo to get. Koxx is now aiming in making light and good looking frames. But that's it!

[ChrisB]

A company can charge extra for their products, and continue to sell them because it is a superior product.

Koxx makes the best trials frames and parts IMO. i would never ride a Deng bike because i don't like the geo on any of them, and they look like shit IMO.

[MIKE1968]

The cost of frames is almost the same for every model. And the bigger price is just the result of avarice I'd say. Almost every rider in France rides koxx and this the biggest market for koxx! If we would take a look what people ride in other countries it would be mostly echo. And excuse that they keep all the stuff in France is no excuse e.g. Levelboss frame in factory cost around 20-30$ if we take full container and of course we have to! After all extra fees Koxx sells parts to dealers at about half of the RRP, so they do earn a lot on parts and I'm pretty sure it's not because they have to pay theirs team members. Deng earns a lot less on his frames... And he also have to keep his warehouse, which isn't small. Their (koxx) parts aren't evenly better compared to echo and so... Most of parts haven't changed in years and I'd say there is a lot to change in them! I have koxx lb frame and it was pretty nice compared to my customade Mielec but after changing to echo control. I just said to myself "WTF I was doing all this year on that frame?!:O". Huge improvement after change...

Statement that Echo parts are low-end parts is just fucking untrue. After all they both are from same factory!

Koxx is maybe more pro because of weight of his frames, but that's all...Maybe Echo is heavier, but they give you better choice of what geo to get. Koxx is now aiming in making light and good looking frames. But that's it!

The cost to have them welded by some chinaman is the same...the R & D, design, riders and all of that costs them a shitload- I'm not saying deng doesn't do these but lets face it, no brand new frame idea has ever come out of Deng. They wait to see what others do then copy it, they put nothing into it (especially in the early days).

[FoxRacer]

I don't know if I should agree or not as firstly we should take a look at biketrials parts... you can't get that much innovative with every single model. Hifi - copy, gu - copy, but they ARE diffrent, so it just depends on view of person. I wouldn't say that Hifi is a copy, but IMO Kobike is... It's like new S class and Maybach... they are similar etc. so designers are NOT innovative and sucks. We just have to change a view on trials parts a bit...

And from what I remember Deng was the first to use hydroforming in trials frame (TEAM)...

Now I'd say Deng got rid of all this very well looking frames and went straight and simple, put more effort into geometry and joy of using, like integrated boosters etc. From what I've been talking to Deng, he want to create parts which will last not always look gd, now we starting to see what he meant. He doesn't produce thousands of colors. Just zoo - black and green, adamant - black and gold... only Echo will keep all 6 colors (but IMO he should do like try-all did... mostly black parts...)

[TRA]

All the deng brands are the least tested , most parts and colors any brand have . Im guessing Deng now goes for the more longlasting products from now on maybe , because he has lost alot of money making parts that does not last.

[pav]

What does deng look like?

Has anyone seen him before?

[esfrost]

He isnt real, he is a computer with artificial intelligence ;)

[Chris]

Deng at work.

http://www.greenpeace.org/raw/image_full/international/photosvideos/photos/chinese-man-smelts-computer-pa.jpg

[hophopsnap]

mmm whippin up a batch of some cranks

[hophopsnap]

where the fuck do you buy koxx anymore? webcyclery=no, midwest=no, faction=no. do you have to go to canada?

[mikeschiavone]

trialsin.com

[guumer]

All the deng brands are the least tested .

how long did your pure last?

[TRA]

it lasted forever, but with him its actually more up to luck . lol

Deng is impatient , thats just how it is

[smudge]

This nearly rivals the ever so stimulating Magura vrs V-brake debate.

Prices on some bikes are high because there is some dark evil Bush-capitalist kabal (kabala?!) that keeps people like me living the high and mighty lifestyle we do.

Prices on some bike things are low because there is some dark evil Mao-socialist plot to use the poor on a level not seen since "the great leap forward".

Now that you all know the deep dark secrets of pricing in the bike world, could this thread be cast to the same ash heap as Jim Careys acting skills.

Thank you.

If Tim weren't so bent on sitting poolside in his diamond encrusted, gold-laced banana hammock, listening to all that high end audio equipment while his rugrats are out courting Paris Hilton and crashing their Veyron's, we'd all have much nicer trials bikes AND still have a few sheckles in our pockets. Damn money hoarding retailers. :)

[Mango]

Deng products are the least tested but imagine the life of a chinease factory frame builder. 12 hours a day you tig weld together alluminum.. You would THINK they would get pretty damn good at it. Looking at my echo welds its like perfectly welded. This being said i dont think that deng products are invinceable. It pisses me off that they used aluminum threads for the magura mounts and that they stripped off the first season. I dont like how the drop outs are so cramped that a quick release barely fits on them.

Did anyone else read the post about the factory costs? Koxx having to pay people in some other factory to build their stuff where as deng just owns the factory and under pays his employies. I think that has more to do with this than anything else.

[kieldp]

Deng doesn't own the factory, so the manufacturing costs for Koxx and Echo would be pretty similar (as Koxx would be using a similar factory to Echo), But then Koxx then has to ship its bikes to France and then it has to be shipped worldwide, then they have the stuff like more staff/sponsored riders and other operating costs..