The best of everything

[MultiRider]

I'm going to have a new bike built. Planning on a Simtra frame. Would like recommendations for everything else. :eek5:

I'm going with dual disc. I have Hayes HFX9s on my mountain bike. It would be nice to use the same on my trials bike so the bleeding process is the same and the pads are the same and that sort of thing. But it is more important to get the best brakes for the job. Are the Hope Trials better? How better - more power or modulation or ??

I'd like at least 72 engagement points. Hope hub or King or fixed hub with Hope freewheel or ??

Other recommendations, please - rims, cranks, pedals (would like some that are pretty sticky), headset, stem, bars, everything. Please include why you recommend -- i.e. "used for years and never broke" or "easy to lube and adjust" or features or whatever.

Thanks!

[Mango]

brakes: Go Avid BB 7 (8 inch in the rear 7 or 8 in the front)

if you have 500 bucks to spend on a hub get a king if not go for the hope pro trial

rims: Go for dx 32 in the rear as its a good rim and very easy to find at the lbs. for the front get another dx 32 for front use try all or dm 24 or echo.

pedals: anything with grip a lot of bmx peddals will do the job

cranks: you can spend 300 online for bonz or middleburn but a 175 truvativ hussefelt does the job.

headset: 200 for a king 75 for a good fsa one (pig dh)

stem: try all or echo if your a taller guy try a longer stem.

bars: Zoo! has one of the best trials bars out there. If not zoo try all

tires: maxxis high rollers or try all stiky


hope it helps mind you you dont need everything on the list its just a general parts list its really up to you what you get.

[RT Wolf]

In trials you can either get cheap, light or strong. You get to pick two (dun remember who said this, I think from trials-online).

If money is no object whatsoever then:

Brakes: Hope trials brakes
Hubs: King
Rims: DX-32s or tryalls
Pedals: I think one of the higher end wellgos
Cranks: Bonz or middleburn (ISIS)
headset: King
stem: whatever, not that important, I relaly like brisa, though
Bars: whatever, I like Brisa, again. Tryalls are good, too
Tires: Prolly Michelin

If you want a great quality but not as expensive:

Brakes: Avids (8" in the back)
Hubs: Rear king, front, whatever (there is no compromise on the king)
Tires: Michelin or high rollers
Pedals: Wellgo MG-1
Pretty much what Mango said.

[MultiRider]

Yeah, the title of "Best of everything" might be misleading. This is definitely not a "cost is no object" exercise. I'd like to know best value and where to absolutely not compromise.

For instance, if a King headset is the best but a FSA Pig is 90% as good and 50% of the cost, the Pig gets the bacon!

I'm very interested in opinions about the rear hub and freewheel options. Opinions on fixed rear hub / front freewheel vs a traditional hub? Is King really worth the $$? I put a Hadley 105 on my mountain bike and broke it in 3 months. Bearings self-destructed. They replaced the bearings for free. Broke again in 2 months. They replaced with a different model - I'm not sure which one - that has 72 engagement points instead of 105. That was about 3 months ago. I've started hearing some crunching noises back there again. I'm concerned the replacement hub may be going out. If it does, I'm going to tell the wheelbuilder (who recommended the Hadleys) that he needs to swap me to King for the original difference (approx $125). I wish I had gotten Kings in the first place because I hate repeated breakdowns by the same parts.

So . . . King hubs are a must? Or is a fixed hub with front freewheel (White Industries?) as good for less $$ or perhaps even more reliable or ?? 72+ engagement points is a requirement.

What are the critical, no compromise choiceds for someone who really doesn't want to break stuff and have a lot of downtime from parts that aren't up to the punishment of a 185 pound novice trials rider who is committed to practicing a lot and advancing skills quickly?

[Caesbiketrial]

get everything from tryall or echo, zoo get a freewhel transmision with a tryall hub and xxl rims from tryall get a hope rear disc for trial or a martha caliper with deore lever!!

[jmkimmel]

In trials you can either get cheap, light or strong. You get to pick two (dun remember who said this, I think from trials-online).





That was Keith Bontrager - one of the more recognizable quotes in all of bikedom.

[Free-Ride-Junkie]

I am currently building up a Simtra through Tim at Trialsin.... I am running the Magura HS-33 out back, Hope Trials disk in front, White Industries FW mounted on the crank, VIZ stem, VIZ wheelset, Monty or Try-all crank, and then a casette in the rear with a chain tensioner so that I can switch to a geared setup with the addition of a derrailleur and shifter.

[MultiRider]

I sure like the look of the Echo rims. Do they hold up?

Hey, FreeRideJunkie (or anyone) - is there a VIZ web site somewhere? I did a couple searches but no luck.

Anyone have a strong preference and reasoning behind King hub vs fixed hub and front freewheel?

A popular saying in project management is "Cost, quality, schedule - pick any two". That's been around a LONG time. Perhaps Keith modified it for biking.

[Free-Ride-Junkie]

Yeah.... It's vizbikes.com. The reason you can't find it (and I couldn't) is beacause I think it is actually V!S but you can't use a "!" in an address....

[free_rideman]

Avid bb7 brakes for the front and rear (8 inch rotors).

Brake levers- just get the cheaper ones. Avid speed dail 7 for about $30

Wheels:

hope trials rear hub, shimano xt front hub (ubber cheap), laced with wheelsmith standard spokes to a Alex DX32 rear, and a Alex DM24 front. This whole wheelset should cost around $400 from a bike shop, including labor.

The Truvativ hussefelt trials cranks with howitzer bb are nice. The cranks themselves cost about $80 on ebay (that is where I got mine). Also add about $40 for the special howitzer bb that you need.

Sun ringle ZUZU pedals are very nice, sealed and $30

Oh, and just get the standard FSA Pig headset for $25. It has normal ball bearings but IMO they are easier to service. You can save cash here!

[literocola]

Avid BB7's all the way.

I have the Hayes 9's on my other bike, and the BB7's but them to shame, even bieng mechanical. After using BB7's I will never use Hayes

[MultiRider]

Would the Avid Juicy 7s be a better choice than the BB7s?

My only experience with mechanical disc is Formulas and they were TERRIBLE! Constant rotor drag and poor power. If you really wanted to stop in a hurry, the only thing you could do was aim for a tree or a wall or something. "Stop" and "hurry" did not go in the same sentece with those mechanical discs.

I'm pretty happy with the Hayes HFX9s on my mtb. But I like the dial adjustment on the Avids. But I can't imagine going mechanical again. The Hope Trials seem to have a good reputation.

Brakes are critical. BB7s? Really? Over the Juicy? Over the Hope Trials?

[Free-Ride-Junkie]

The Juicy 7 is a great brake with a lot of tuneability and modulation. For trials you don't necesarily want a lot of modulation. That is where the on or off of the BB7 is nice. Personally.... I went with the Hope brake.

[perkins]

Viz stuff is really nice... I have been really happy with the parts that I have... bars, wheels, and fork. Give Tim a call at Trialsin USA.

[MultiRider]

Well, I took the plunge and ordered a Simtra. Hope Trials brakes, FSA Platinum Pro BB, Echo cranks, Zhi bars and rims. After considerable thought and not a little anxiety, I bit the bullet and am going with King hubs. About a $300 upgrade. If I keep it and ride it for 5 or 6 years, that's not a bad price to pay for smooth action, rock solid realiabilty, and 72 engagement points.

I'm psyched!

Thanks to all for the advice. Much appreciated!

[Rodmunch]

Pics when you get it all together! Sounds like a hot setup.

[MultiRider]

Absolutely. I'll put get some still shots, then find a good rider for the action shots. :bigthumb: Volunteers in the south Denver / Castle Rock area?

[Free-Ride-Junkie]

NICE! Sound similar to the setup I just worked out with him. (Except I am going the fixed rear hub with front freewheel instead of King hubs.) Something tells me you are looking at roughly 2 weeks until you get yours too?? We'll need to get pics to compare when they come in.

[the@bourd]

Pedals: magnesium like Wellgo MG1. It is lighter and strong enough.
Tyres: I 'll say Try all sticky, cause they have a lot of bound and an extra grip.
Dh tube (thickness: 1mm, like nokian) on the rear wheel.
Bottom bracket: SKF. The only bottom bracket ISIS with specific intern balls bearings.

If you are Single speed addicted, I advice you a DMR revolver Single Speed Disc hub, with a surly cog (16 or 15t) and a front freewheel (Eno trial, tryall 108.9 (108 engagement points) or a Monty, very cheap (72 engagement points) or a Tensile).
A KMC chains with a Surly or Rohloff chain tensioner.

Cranks and bashgard: I love the Tensile :yum:

Grips: lizard skin logo lock on. They can't turn on your bar and they are very sweet four your hands.

[carnagr]

Definitely don't use a DH tube. If you have a decent tire, it's not at all necessary.

[FoxRacer]

zhi bars are shit with weight around 500-600g and uber shitty geo. new echo rims are better than zhi rims, they are still pretty strong though.

[beedo]

Well, I took the plunge and ordered a Simtra. Hope Trials brakes, FSA Platinum Pro BB, Echo cranks, Zhi bars and rims. After considerable thought and not a little anxiety, I bit the bullet and am going with King hubs. About a $300 upgrade. If I keep it and ride it for 5 or 6 years, that's not a bad price to pay for smooth action, rock solid realiabilty, and 72 engagement points.

I'm psyched!

Thanks to all for the advice. Much appreciated!

Now THAT sounds like a great bike! But you will probably play around with bar/stem combos so don't worry about the ones you're getting being the be-all-end-all items. Ride your bike and learn stuff, but don't be afraid to change things to improve it for you.

Also, when you look at the dollar-per-fun ratio, the trials bike beats out MX and XC mtb'ing as far as the cost of the vehicle is concerned. So, $2000 for a top line trials rig is alot less than say, $7000 for a new moto bike, or $3500+ for a top line XC/FR/DH mtb. Am I right?

[chronic]

Just to add. I love the simtra frame. Its an awesome bike. You'll like!

[Free-Ride-Junkie]

I like hearing good things like this seeing that I ordered mine too. LoL

[r464]

I built my stock bike this summer, and I went with the things that I thought were the right ones for me:

Rear wheel: Chris King ISO disc hub with heavy-duty axle laced to Alex DX-32 rim
Front brake: Avid BB7
Cranks: Echo (I already had them)
Pedals: Syncros Mental Chromoly (grippier than anything else out there)
Front cog: Soma CNC chromoly
Headset: FSA Pig DH (I have Chris King on all my mtbs, but the cups on this will last)
Chain: KMC, but I have an HKK Vertex track chain as well

I use track chains on my track bike, and they are far and away the strongest things out there. Go with HKK or Izumi. They have a bolt instead of a master link. If you are lucky, you can still find an HKK Vertex in blue for about $35.

[MultiRider]

Technology -- a blessing and a curse. The FedEx web site shows that my bike was in Henderson, Colorado, at 3:30pm today. Scheduled delivery is Saturday. So it is somewhere pretty close. Probably spending the night in Denver. But it won't be here tomorrow. I have to wait until Saturday. What time Saturday? No way to know. I called FedEx and asked for status. Asked if I could drive somewhere and pick it up tomorrow. Nope. And no way to know when it will actually arrive at my house. ARGH!!! The anticipation is killing me!

[MultiRider]

HAHA!!! FedEx site says today "ON TRUCK FOR DELIVERY"!!! I am totally pscyhed! This day has been a LONG time coming! (Ordered on Oct 23; been waiting on the wheelbuilder, on Monday Tim at TrialsIn suggested shipping without the rear wheel, so I will put my mtb wheel on it to ride until the real wheel shows).

[beedo]

You'll probably get it today !!! Hope you're home to get it, otherwise it'll probably go back to fedex for the package gorillas to throw around for another day....
My new frame and fork arrives Tuesday next week, but I'm still missing a lot of parts for it.......bummers....

[RT Wolf]

Mmm, the anticipation. the expectation.

[literocola]

Cant wait to see this Simtra in Person!

[MultiRider]

Went for a ride with literocola (Michael Myers) today. I was unbelievably bad. Couldn't track stand, couldn't climb even the shortest little ledges, nothing at all. About all I did well was go down stuff. Trials is HARD!

I realized back wheel traction was an issue. I originally put a 2.1 Michelin xc tire on the back for learning curve purposes thinking that wouldn't affect me since I'm so new at this. "Might as well wear out a crummy tire while learning this stuff." But the lack of traction was actually holding me back quite a bit. I struggled for an hour and kept thinking about putting on a decent tire (brought the 2.5 Maxxis High Roller that Tim from Trialsin provided with me) but kept thinking it was me, not the tire. Finally swapped the tire and it actually made quite a difference. I started riding some better and was encouraged.

Then Michael's chain blew up. Once we got it fixed, I started riding better and was actually able to get up and over some of the rocks and felt kind of good about that. It was still somewhat disappointing because I was barely doing what I had done on the Yeti in the past. But it was better than my Saturday experience and the first hour of today's ride.

Then I went to a pretty tall rock -- approx 3' high. Put my front wheel on it. Hopped pretty controlled. Kept doing it until VOILA! I actually hopped once without the front wheel touching the rock! I was psyched! That just delighted me beyond belief! I kept at it for a while and then did a double hop! More practice and a triple hop! I kept at it for a while and did several triple hops. I can't tell you how encouraging that was. My first real day on the bike and I had a pretty major breakthrough -- pretty cool! I'm not good at hopping on the back wheel yet and I can't actually use it to get onto anything yet, but it seemed like a pretty significant achievement, particularly after the first hour of today's ride.

So, I'm feeling pretty good about trials. I think I will be able to get it and do pretty well. Well enough that it will be fun.

I'll try to post pics of the bike soon.

[Stikman]

There are more important things to learn than back wheel hopping Multi, but it definately is a sweet feeling to begin learning these new skills and making progress!

We definately want to see pictures!!

[mcdub]

You guys all suck.

xtp frame
fsa bb
burn cranks
urban fork
thomson stem
try all rear rim
king groupo
mavic front wheel
SS on kool with king kog
try all bar
ss braiding
mono trials
hs 33


Oh wait thats my bike....

[MultiRider]

There are more important things to learn than back wheel hopping Multi, but it definately is a sweet feeling to begin learning these new skills and making progress!

We definately want to see pictures!!
I've thought about getting a trails bike for a LONG time but, frankly, part of me was reluctant because I might never "get it" and the whole thing would be a big mistake. After committing to buying one with Tim at TrialsIn and knowing the frame was on order and all the parts were coming and there was no turning back, the thrill of committing gave way to some anxiety about being able to learn the techniques. I've never been able to wheelie anything -- bikes as a kid, motorcycles as a motocrosser, my cross country bike, nothing. The more I thought about backhopping, the more I thought "I'll never get that, this was a mistake". So it is pretty cool to have some success on that critical move pretty quickly. Now I need to learn to trackstand and rock and the basics!

I love the dual disc setup. Love the Simtra. Still waiting on the back wheel -- King with Zhi rim. Hopefully that will ship this week and I'll have it next week. Then it will truly be a sweet bike!

So here's my bike and bikes. The YZ is for sale, ping me if you're interested or know someone who might be.

[Elan]

is that a 250f or a 450f?

[Christian@simtrabikes.com]

Very nice bike!
If you have any questions about it, don't hesitate to ask.

[guumer]

is that a 250f or a 450f?
450 i think

[free_rideman]

I might be wrong, but I think your handlebar is rolled back too much. It is hard to see from the pictures, but you might want to roll it foward.

Other than that, it is a very nice bike! Hope you enjoy it for a long time to come. It is very cool to see beginners with brand new bikes! Talk about motivation to ride!

btw- what hubs are you using?

[MultiRider]

That's a 2003 YZ450F. Starts easily, runs strong, lots of good stuff - Enzo suspension, Jardine exhaust, SDG gripper seat, RG3 triple clamps, ProTaper bars, and more!

I ordered King hubs, but Tim's wheelbuilder didn't have the spokes for it so the rear wheel is delayed. In the pic, it is a King on the front and an XT on the rear. Hopefully a King on the rear soon!

Christian and/or others -- There is a kind of clicking sensation in the front. When I hold the front brake and rock the bike back and forth, I can feel something move and clunk. I checked the front hub, the front axle, and the brake rotor; all are tight. So I loosened the stem bolts and tightened the top cap, then tightened the stem bolts again. That reduced the amount/severity of the clicking, but it still clicks. I felt like I put a fair amount of force on the top cap bolt, so I am reluctant to tighten it further. I've never adjusted a headset before and am not sure how hard to turn it. Thoughts?

I have no idea how to position handlebars, so a couple more pics attached. Does the little graphic on the front of the bars mean something regarding bar adjustment? Or is it just a graphic? Input welcome!

[jmkimmel]

it's really just personal preference. Lots of trials riders tend to roll their bars so that the 'sweep' points directly upwards. I do the same - it feels better with the forward position that trials bikes put you in (over the bars as opposed to behind them like on a regular mtb)

[RT Wolf]

That moving sounds like the disc pads moving. I don't recall the exact remedy to that, maybe someone else can help you out with that.

[free_rideman]

What ever you do, don't tighten the headset too much. It should be just tighten enough so that the fork doesn't move around in the headtube. A really good way of checking this is by putting the bike on its back wheel, and having a friend move the fork up and down (trying to that is), while you feel the headset and see if the races move. It should be just tight enough to stop any play, and not much more. It should spin smoothly.

As for the bars- don't be afraid to roll them foward and check how that feels. Everyone has a personal preference, but you will never know if you don't try. Not that you have to do it now, since you are still new to this, but be sure to check it out one day. Obviously the more experienced you get, the more you are going to play around with different setups, which also includes changing stem lengths and rises.

-the problems with the clicking sounds also to me like the pads in your brakes. I think this is pretty natural, and can happen.

-very cool to hear that you have Chris king hubs! (be sure to check up on them during the break in period, they will get a bit loose, and you might need to tighten them)

[Free-Ride-Junkie]

Where the hell is my Simtra?? I thought we ordered them around the same time from Trialsin?? Well at least you got yours to have fun on.....

[mcdub]

GOLD

I had gold going before all of you.

Nice bike either way.

[Noel]

Once you get rear gold wheel, your bike is going to be the illest SIMTRA out.

[free_rideman]

I actually forgot to comment on that. That simtra does look kick ass! Normally I don't like how dual disc bike look like, but this one is pimp!

The geometry setup looks also nice! Looks like it rides well.

[Stikman]

Super nice ride Multi.
I'll take your moto if you can post it to New Zealand!! ;) You could maybe send the Yeti along too!

I agree with the bars. Try rotating them forward until the little circle hits the lower part of the stem faceplate and see ho it feels. Also I would reccomend going single speed unless you ride a fair way to your riding spots. :) Good luck learning, and remember to have fun!!

[rush]

Mcdub, no one cares.

Sick bike man, very nice indeed. ;)

[Free-Ride-Junkie]

Mine got shipped out today. :-)

[StaggerLee]

A really good way of checking this is by putting the bike on its back wheel, and having a friend move the fork up and down (trying to that is), while you feel the headset and see if the races move. It should be just tight enough to stop any play, and not much more. It should spin smoothly.


I always just lock up the front brake and push and pull on the bike, while felling the headset with my hand. On a suspension fork I'll turn the wheel sideways and do the same. Having a friend help would do the same but I have no friends.................................. and don't want any

[mistri@l]

stem: whatever, not that important, I relaly like brisa, though
Bars: whatever, I like Brisa, again. Tryalls are good, too



:ugh:

your bar and stem combo is pretty important

[RT Wolf]

^ What I was getting at was that it's not that important which brand you pick (as long as it's one of hte big ones). For example, in hubs, CK is king, by and large. But stems and bars are pretty much all personal preference. As long as you buy from one of the more well-known ones, you can expect a good bar and stem. Stem and bar rise and other features are more important.

[MultiRider]

As reported previously, Michael Myers (literocola) and I rode last Monday. After a really rough start where I felt like a total novice on a bike, I had some success getting over some rocks and boulders, plus managed a couple of hops on the back wheel.

On Tuesday, I was messing around in my back yard which includes a retaining wall that is about 2 1/2 feet high. I was able to hop on the back wheel 10-12 times. Pretty cool! I tried trackstanding and little positioning hops as well, but that was extremely frustrating just doing it on flagstone with no real purpose. So I mixed the basic stuff with backhopping to stay motivated.

My bike went into the minivan on Wednesday for our trip to Texas for Thanksgiving. Unfortunately, there was virtually no interesting terrain where we were at (Centerville) and not as much time to ride as anticipated. Basically, I practiced some trackstanding and small hops, then practiced backhopping by using some stairs to get started.

When we got back from Texas, great was the happiness when it was found that the King/Zhi rear wheel had arrived! Unbelievably, I misplaced the yellow rim liner, so installation was greatly delayed and the frustration meter was pretty much pegged. I finally found it and got the wheel on. Shazaam!! Gorgeous! Will post a pic when I get a chance. Probably tomorrow.

I went riding yesterday and it was a mixed bag in terms of results, but a great couple hours on the bike. I rode up to a place near my house that has natural terrain. Let me start by saying that 1.5 miles of road riding on a trials bike is a bummer. Not horrible, but absolutely zero fun and it takes so long compared to a road bike! Even with gears, it was a bummer.

Anyway, the ride went well. As before, I was surprised over and over by how hard riding trials is as I flubbed basic moves and couldn't climb stuff that I get up easily on my Yeti. But then I got up and over a few boulders that give me trouble on my Yeti. And towards the end of the ride, I got up and over some boulders that I have never even considered on my Yeti. That was a rush! Big, steep, sharp, nasty boulders. Up and over! Very cool. But I have a lot of trouble with rocky sections that are really bumpy. On the Yeti, I just slam into them, count on the suspension to suck up the bumps, and I'm over in a flash. On the Simtra, the wheels chatter and I lose traction and spin out. Very frustrating.

I also practiced positioning the bike and riding fairly easy terrain and swinging the back around and going down some pretty gnarly stuff. Basically, it was a lot of frustration punctuated by successes that were really sweet. I rode until after the sun went down and it was too dark to see. I continue to be both bummed over what a hard time I'm having and psyched about some of the stuff I was able to do.

In Psychology 101, they teach about rewards and motivation. One of the basic things they've found is that subjects are far more motivated by intermittent rewards instead of being rewarded every time. If an action results in the same reward every time, the subject gets bored with it pretty quickly. But if the reward is intermittent -- sometimes given, sometimes withheld -- the subject is significantly more motivated to continue the behavior in a quest for the reward. That always fascinated me. Now I'm the "subject" and am experiencing that on a very personal level in trials riding. I can make mistake after mistake and suffer frustration after frustration to the point of giving up, but one small success and suddenly the dark clouds are gone, the sun is shining, and all is right in the world again! And it is the epitome of intermittent rewards because many of the successes are completely unexpected. That is, I attack a boulder that I don't truly believe I'll be able to get over and WOWSA it is conquered and I'm reveling in the success. So it is interesting both to experience the learning curve AND to observe my reactions to each step along the way.

Overall, the bike is great! I don't have much experience on other trials bikes, so my opinion is based on very little data, but the Simtra has fantastic clearance, turns extremely accurately, is sufficiently stable going down gnarly sections, is both very light and very rigid, and I'm able to get hop on the backwheel after very little time on the bike (a skill I have never had before). The Hope Trials disc brakes are awesome, the King hubs are fabulous, and the whole bike is a great package. I'm very happy with the it. It will be interesting to ride the Tank (Michael) and the HiFi (Julian) that I rode before now that I have more of a feel for trials riding and some skills.