The basics

[MultiRider]

I am thinking about getting into trials. I've been riding cross country mtb for a few years now and realize that my favorite thing to do is conquer technical terrain like rocks, roots, switchbacks, boulders -- I love "cleaning" a section. I'll try the same thing over and over and over to try to get it. I can get over some pretty gnarly stuff. I've also learned to hop the bike. I started out hopping just the back around to get through switchbacks. I've progressed to hopping the whole bike up stairs and rocks and stuff. Which takes a lot of energy on a 30 pound full-suspension (5.5" of travel) Yeti mtb. Oh, I also do pedal kicks to get up onto boulders and to drop off ledges (nothing huge -- 2' or so).

I got Ryan Leech's "Mastering the Art of Trials" video to learn more about doing trials moves during my cross-country mtb rides. But then it occurred to me that it is hard to ride trials on a Yeti 575 and perhaps I should get a real trials bike.

A few questions:

What is the difference between a stock bike and a mod bike? It appears to be just the wheel size - 26" vs 20". Is that right?
The bike Ryan used in the Mastering the Art of Trials video has a cassette in the back and derailluer. Most trials bikes I've seen in videos on the web are single speed. Since the place I plan to ride is 1.5 miles away, I'd like a derailluer so I can ride there at a reasonable pace and not have to drive. Obviously, a multi-speed setup weighs a little more. And would be more maintenance. But I think I could handle that. Are there other issues to consider? Do they break often? Toss the chain often? If the derailluer/cassette ruined my rides by popping off or breaking, that would be a showstopper. I can't stand to have my rides ruined by mechanical failures. I will put up with all kinds of other problems, but I really hate mechanical failures. Ryan didn't seem to have any troubles with his derailluer / cassette in the video, but it was edited of course. Oh, and he's a better rider than me.
Same basic question about a suspension fork -- Ryan had one on his bike with 2-3" of travel. Most trials bikes I've seen have rigid forks. Your thoughts?
Disc brakes -- I'm a big fan of them. Advantages and disadvantages for trials?
Tubeless? Or tubes? What kind of psi is used for trials?
I'd really like a seat. Any significant disadvantages to having a seat? They seem to be rare. But it would be hard to ride the 1.5 miles to the riding area standing up the whole way. I'd be pretty drained when I got there!
I'm 6'2" tall and 185 pounds. Any thoughts on appropriate bikes and size of bikes?
I'd like to be realistic about what I'm going to be able to do. I love riding and have good mtb skills. I've seen the Ryan video and a bunch of short videos on www.observedtrials.net (http://www.observedtrials.net/). Those guys sure make it all look easy. But really -- can the average bicycle enthusiast learn to do all that stuff? Hop the bike up a retaining wall, onto picnic tables, up and over boulders, do all that hopping on the back wheel? Or are there just a few people in the world that do that and they make all the videos? I sure can't do anything like that on my Yeti. Will a real trials bike enable me to do way more than I can on the Yeti?Any thoughts and suggestions as far as next steps are welcome.

Anybody know of a good shop in the Colorado Springs / Castle Rock / Denver area? Preferrably one that allows demo rides?

Thanks!

[thisthingz]

for
1) stock vs mod, wheels are different, the mod is a little bit shorter, has a bash plate on the bottom of the bottom tube instead of a bash guard as a stock has, and supposedly easier to learn moves on (havent ridden a mod) so i dont know.
2) i have a derailer on my bike, my chain actually hasnt fallen off once, dont know about the smashing (havent hit my deralier) but deralier slap is annoying
3) everything is easier rigid except it hurts a little more when u land wrong
4) you can have disc brakes in the back (avid bb7's) you can search the upsides and downsides on disk brakes
5) i think everyone uses tubes. i use about 20-25 psi because im pretty light
6) dont think any disadvantages to having a seat besides finding one with a seat and weight, but you cant pedal sitting down on ur bike anyway its just there for rest
7) i just started pretty recently and i can do some of those things except i know it will take much longer to get as good as the vids on otn(depends who some much much longer than others) but it'll just take time and patience to learn
hope i helped and the search function can answer alot of your questions

[eturt9]

Mod's are 20" stocks are 26 in. All mods are singlespeed, a stock can be either single speed or cassetted.

No issues with derailleur if you have it set up correctly as long as its not a typical thumbshifter like on most mountain bikes. Also a short cage derailleur and have the chain tension as tight as possible while still alowing it to shift. ^^if you set it up properly, you can have no chain slap with a derailleur

No real need for suspension fork. It is heavier and you lose power through it. Plus with high volume tires and wide rims, you'll get a slight bit of cush from the tires anway.

Alot of people run front discs, they have good power and modulation. Most run Magura HS33 rear rim brakes on a ground rim with good pads- for great lock up and little modulation (uneccesary on the rear). V brakes can work well also if set up properly. Some run rear disc, the reason most didn't run rear disc was it is easy to shear of the disc mounts through the high torque in trials. Newer bikes have stronger mounts so it isn't as much of a problem anymore. If you are using a standard mtb frame for trials however i wouldn't recomend a rear disc for this reason.

Regular tubed tires. Usually 2.5 in tire rear. Most trials bikes have super wide rims which essentially makes pinch flats non existent even when bottoming out the rim.

Seats are heavier and can get in the way. It's really not that hard to ride around on a trials bike. You will eventially get used to it. Most trials frames now don't even come with seat tubes. But you can use one if you want.

Size depends on what type of riding. Street style with lots of bunny hops and manual, slightly shorter like 1065 mm wheel base. 1085 or so if looking for more of a dedicated trials bike, usually better for natural. If want a dedicated bike, echo control is always a good bet.

Part of being good is athleticism. Most is dedication and tons of practice. Having an appropriate bike helps a lot. If you put the time in on a decent bike, you will be able to do the stuff you mentioned. You are significanly crippled in trials riding on your FS.

[Ravenholm]

About the disc and seat thing, I run a rear disc on my brisa, since I dont have magura mounts on there. The rotors will tend to warp a small amount of a period of time, but it is easy to straighten them out. I sheared off the actual caliper on my discs, from the torque, but that shouldn't happen often at all, and shouldn't be a factor in your decision of disc vs. maggies.

Seats. I have a tiny tiny seat on my brisa. I just use it cause it came with the bike, and to sit down on something that isnt really uncomfortable. Because of its placement and size it doesn't get in my way. Most trials bikes because of the geometry, even if you put a normal mtb seat on there, you wont be able to pedal sitting down, its too far back and down, because the top tube distance relative to the down tube and chainstay distance is really really small.

Stock vs mod. : Mod's are supposed to be flickable, but I don't know offhand about this. I ride a stock, and it feels pretty flickable to me. Stocks are easier at rolling up things, mod's arent. People will think you are on a bmx bike or a kids bike if you ride a mod, which bothers me.

I think if you have enough dedication and commitment, you will do good in trials. It's not that hard, but the beginnings are discouraging, until you get the hang of it all. Search the forums for tips, and watch how to videos and it should come to you in a few weeks. I think the reason alot more people do not make videos is self-discouragement, and the fact that quality video cameras are really expensive.

Good luck in your venture, and welcome to the world of trials.

~Alden.

Oh shit, edit: go to the colorado section of our forums, there are tons of riders in your area I think. They will probably be glad to let you demo their bikes.

[ONE EYE]

Yep, what everyone else said.

Not much more to say.

Matt.

[MultiRider]

Very helpful replies! Much appreciated!

Sounds like a stock bike with a derailleur would work for me. I would really like to go on a group ride to watch and maybe try out a bike or two. I'll hit the Colorado category and see if that's possible.

I'd like to start out with a used bike so I can get going with a reasonable investment. I found the "Tank" bikes on eBay, but read a bunch of posts on this board that make them sound like a poor choice for me given how much I hate mechanical breakdowns. So I think I'll take the plunge with a quality bike. It seems like most of the pre-owned for sale stuff on this board is parts, not whole bikes. I don't know enough to feel like building a bike up from scratch is a good idea for me.

What's the best way to find used bikes for sale? Couldn't find any (other than Tanks) on eBay when I looked this past weekend. Only a couple of whole bikes on this site. Other suggestions?

Are the various bikes (Echo, Zoo, Monty, etc) significantly different geometries and riding characteristics? Mountain bikes are very similar yet have distinct characteristics. Serious road bikes have pretty much settled into two configurations - race bikes that are very aggressive handling and then "sport" bikes that are a little more relaxed. The primary differences are weight, component quality, and use of carbon for a little more comfortable ride. Anyway, does an Echo Control handle significantly different from a Echo Pure or from the various Zoo or Monty or other bikes? Or are they all really close?

Any thoughts on the best starting place for a guy who is 6'2", 185 pounds, riding primarily natural terrain? Someone said Echo Control in a post above. Any other thoughts?

Thanks!

P.S. - I put a 2.5" Kenda Nevegal Stick-E on my Yeti last week and was rewarded with much better traction on my Saturday ride. It was a best ever -- cleaned a couple sections I rarely get. I was pumped!

[trellex]

Whoops

[trellex]

Regards to your first post:

* The main difference between a mod or stock is, yes, the wheel size, and generally the wheelbase. You say you want to do more technical terrain (ie rocks, skinnies, beachs?) then generally the mod is the way to go, as it is flickier, lighter and generally made for more technical things. But as far as your size goes and preference of using a derailluer and the use of a seat, then a stock probably will your choise. Just so you know though.

* Again, the use of a derailluer is all personal prefence. I have run both single and multispeed. Both have their perks, which you obviously know. I travel around on my bike alot, without a seat, and wish I had a derailluer, so I say go for it. In my experience, try to shorten the chain to lower the chain slap, and limit yourself to certain cogs, imho. There are many ways you can do this.

* Used to run suspension, thought it was the shit. I ran a rigid fork for aobut 15 minutes and loved it more. The reason Ryan runs suspension (or so I've heard), is that since he does so many demos, he can't run the risk of injuring his wrists. Personal prefence again, because some trials riders do run suspension fork, but the huge majority run rigid.

* Most people generally run disc on the front and maggies on the back. If you were to run dual disc, you sound and look alot smoother, and you have insured stoppage. Avid BB7's are a relatively cheap and effective disc brake, but getting a Hope would be much better, as when the Avid BB7's burn up the rotor, they get less effective. I didn't find that with the Hope. (for the best advice, imo, go talk to BrettM)

* Tubes. Get a double side wall tread like the one you have now, and invest in a 10 dollar tube. I run my psi around 10-12, but it's all preference. Since you're a 155 pounds, you might wanna run your psi a little higher. Another tip, when travelling, pump up your tires then let air out at your destination

* Seat, again, is preference. The problem is, you'll generally get a shorter wheelbase, which wouldn't seem apropriate for your height. I ride me trials rig to work, which is about the same distance of 1.5 miles, and I'm not that pooped. And yes, there are lots of hills on my travels to work.

* As far so doing stuff like Leech, it's all possible. What he does is pretty standard for trials riders nowadays. But he does some fancy stuff, like the Leech Loops, all the spins and stuff, which I haven't brought myself to do. I guess it'll be your style prefence. But ya, you can do it. Just practise, and grow some balls and give 'er.

[trellex]

But ya, Regards to your second post:
Buying for frame is all what you want to do. Of course there's some give and take. Most trials specific frames out there don't come with a seat post hole/tube. There is the norco moment which does though.

But for a guy your height, I'd probably go with a more trials specific frame with a larger wheelbase, generally 1080 or up. Some trials bikes have 10+ BB, other have 20+ and up BB rise. Some have maggie brake only, some Vee brake, some have the option of disc (ie Simtra). Look around on the companies sites, and see the geometry. Don't forget to go out and try other peoples bikes too! that's a big help!

[RT Wolf]

There's a few full bikes online, keep an eye out for them. If not, you can build it up.

There can be significant differences between companies and even between their models of bikes. The most important measurements are wheelbase (how long or short it is, considering you're over six feet, I would recommend anything longer than 1085mm if you wanna ride UCI) and bb height. Shorter bikes are easier ot do rotional moves on and bunnyhop, longer bikes are easier to tap and to do more trials specific moves on. Higher bbs make hte bike a bit more twitchy on two wheels but easier on the back wheel, while lower ones give you more stability on two wheels. Which is better for you is really a matter of preference, I'd suggest finding something in between extremes, so maybe about 10+ or 15+.

However, you won't be able to notice very fine differences at the beginning (like the diff between 10 or 20+ bb), so, just buy a good quality used bike for a good price (but don't go all out with a koxx xtp or somin) and ride other people's bikes to get a better idea of what you like. Largely, the geo of the bike depends on the kind of riding you do. Someone like Danny Halroyd or Ryan Leech ride shorter frames because they incorporate more streety moves into their riding. Vincent Hermace or Kenny Belaey ride longer frames because it makes their kind of riding easier. Like I said, you won't notice a huge difference in the beginning.

Keep in mind you can learn many of the basics of trials on any bike, including trackstanding, hopping, rocking, upping, bunnyhopping and maybe even backhopping.

[FourFortyOne]

You'll probably need a derailleur either way to tension your chain (trials bikes have vertical dropouts), so if you really think you're going to use more than one speed then you might as well throw a cassette on there.

[trellex]

You'll probably need a derailleur either way to tension your chain (trials bikes have vertical dropouts), so if you really think you're going to use more than one speed then you might as well throw a cassette on there.
It's called a chain tensioner, for single speed. And I believe Simtra's street/trials BNB frame has vertical dropouts, as well as other bikes that I can't think of.

Real trials bikes (mods) don't have vertical dropouts (ie, no derailluer). Stocks do. :bigthumb: Weird how that works.

[trialsrider50]

on the topic of rear disc. the reason most trials bikes never used rear disc is because the don't hold up. the caliper doesn't but because of the standard placement of disc tabs and all the back pressure that trials has, the tabs literally tear off. this is over time of course. they've changed designs some and make thicker dropouts but I'd be carefull. check out the kot ms2 rear brake design. I think that's was all trials manufacturers should be doing. standard external tabs just don't hold up.

[MultiRider]

I'm planning on doing primarily natural terrain, so I think (from what I've read on this site) that stock is the way to go. Plus, I want gears to make riding to and from easier.

This whole BB height thing is interesting. It appears that there is kind of a "classic" bike design (i.e. Echo Pure and Control, most of the Koxx bikes) and a new "high BB" bike design (i.e. Echo HiFi, Adamant A1, new Zoo Pitbull). From what I've read on this site, the high BB design makes the bike feel like it is on stilts when riding on 2 wheels, but makes back wheel moves easier. Sounds like lower BB would be easiest to learn on, but I also want to get a bike I will like long term. Plus it kind of looks like there is a sea change in the industry towards higher BBs. I'd hate to buy the old design if the new one takes over the world.

The KOT mentioned above has a 45mm BB which seems high but not radical (HiFi is 55mm, DerangerBoy is 80mm). Any thoughts on whether taller riders are better off on lower or higher BBs? Is there a correlation?

I'd love to test ride a few different bikes, but haven't found a shop in my area that has trials bikes. I posted to the Colorado forum to see if anyone knows of a shop that has trials bikes. Plus, I'd really like to find people to ride with. While I'll be able to entertain myself for a while, I'm sure I'll want to ride with others pretty soon.

What's the best way to find used bikes? There are only a few for sale on this site. Since I know so little about these bikes and the components, I'm reluctant to buy just a frame. I'd have no idea what stem, bar, cranks, etc to get. I found one really old bike on eBay. Where else to look?

For clarification - what is UCI? What kind of riding do Vincent Hermace and Kenny Belaey do? All I know about Ryan Leech is what I saw on Mastering the Art of Trials Riding, so even that reference isn't very helpful for me.

I don't think I'll be climbing or dropping big retaining walls or other urban tricks any time soon. I certainly won't be doing any kind of spins or loops. The place I'll be riding has a lot of boulders outlining the parking lot, so I'll be doing a lot of climbing on, stringing together, hopping off boulders. Most are 2-5' across and 1-3' high. Some are close enough to straddle from one to the next. Hopefully I'll get that figured out quickly, then start hopping from one boulder to another. It sure sounds like fun to me at this point. I hope reality is at least as much fun as thinking about it as I try to conquer the smallest boulders on my Yeti.

[eturt9]

for the bb issue. A trend for a little while recently was really high bottom brackets. Part has to deal with your UCI issues. UCI is a style of riding that involves never resting your bashguard on an obstacle. Whereas older styles of riding did allow this.. It's more of competition issues.

Also with higher bottom brackets its technically easier to pull the bike up, and usually a little easier to stay on the rear wheel. But "older" lower bb style bikes are not really harder to get on and stay on the rear wheel. High bb bikes feel a little twicher on two wheels because you are higher and a lower bottom bracket bike might feel a little easier to balance on two wheels with. There are other issues related to high bb bikes that some people seem as a problem, some see as benefits, some don't care.

With that put aside, sorta. Now the high bottom bracket trend is sorta dying out and newer versions of echo bikes like zoo, adamant, etc are coming with middle range bottom brackets around +30mm, verus older ones of +0-20, high versions around +60. I don't even know if that helps.

Basically trends change all the time. To start out, you will like most any decent trials bike you get.

[carnagr]

Regards to your first post:

* The main difference between a mod or stock is, yes, the wheel size, and generally the wheelbase. You say you want to do more technical terrain (ie rocks, skinnies, beachs?) then generally the mod is the way to go, as it is flickier, lighter and generally made for more technical things. But as far as your size goes and preference of using a derailluer and the use of a seat, then a stock probably will your choise. Just so you know though.

* Again, the use of a derailluer is all personal prefence. I have run both single and multispeed. Both have their perks, which you obviously know. I travel around on my bike alot, without a seat, and wish I had a derailluer, so I say go for it. In my experience, try to shorten the chain to lower the chain slap, and limit yourself to certain cogs, imho. There are many ways you can do this.

* Used to run suspension, thought it was the shit. I ran a rigid fork for aobut 15 minutes and loved it more. The reason Ryan runs suspension (or so I've heard), is that since he does so many demos, he can't run the risk of injuring his wrists. Personal prefence again, because some trials riders do run suspension fork, but the huge majority run rigid.

* Most people generally run disc on the front and maggies on the back. If you were to run dual disc, you sound and look alot smoother, and you have insured stoppage. Avid BB7's are a relatively cheap and effective disc brake, but getting a Hope would be much better, as when the Avid BB7's burn up the rotor, they get less effective. I didn't find that with the Hope. (for the best advice, imo, go talk to BrettM)

* Tubes. Get a double side wall tread like the one you have now, and invest in a 10 dollar tube. I run my psi around 10-12, but it's all preference. Since you're a 155 pounds, you might wanna run your psi a little higher. Another tip, when travelling, pump up your tires then let air out at your destination

* Seat, again, is preference. The problem is, you'll generally get a shorter wheelbase, which wouldn't seem apropriate for your height. I ride me trials rig to work, which is about the same distance of 1.5 miles, and I'm not that pooped. And yes, there are lots of hills on my travels to work.

* As far so doing stuff like Leech, it's all possible. What he does is pretty standard for trials riders nowadays. But he does some fancy stuff, like the Leech Loops, all the spins and stuff, which I haven't brought myself to do. I guess it'll be your style prefence. But ya, you can do it. Just practise, and grow some balls and give 'er.

I completely disagree with that statement. Mods are better for some things (sidehops mainly), but tech is not one of them.

[RT Wolf]

Any thoughts on whether taller riders are better off on lower or higher BBs? Is there a correlation?

I'd love to test ride a few different bikes, but haven't found a shop in my area that has trials bikes. I posted to the Colorado forum to see if anyone knows of a shop that has trials bikes. Plus, I'd really like to find people to ride with. While I'll be able to entertain myself for a while, I'm sure I'll want to ride with others pretty soon.

What's the best way to find used bikes? There are only a few for sale on this site. Since I know so little about these bikes and the components, I'm reluctant to buy just a frame. I'd have no idea what stem, bar, cranks, etc to get. I found one really old bike on eBay. Where else to look?

For clarification - what is UCI? What kind of riding do Vincent Hermace and Kenny Belaey do? All I know about Ryan Leech is what I saw on Mastering the Art of Trials Riding, so even that reference isn't very helpful for me.

Not really a correlation, the first really high bb bike was the koxx vinco promodel. Vinco is a hella tall rider and I figure he had to jack the bb up to 80+ (I believe) so that he could actually be on most obstacles without his bashguard hitting it.

Depending on where you are in Colorado, you may be able to hook up with Kevin or AndyT and their crew. You might consider PMing them directly for advice.

Best place to find used bikes would be on the for sale forums of these sites. You might find a few on pinkbike, but they're mostly zebdis. I guess check trials-online, too. Wait, some people will want to sell their bikes in the winter, and you may be able to pick some up cheap.

I'll get back to the UCI question later.

[trellex]

I completely disagree with that statement. Mods are better for some things (sidehops mainly), but tech is not one of them.

How?

[RT Wolf]

There's a few "schools" or styles of riding. The main ones are UCI, BIU and street-trials.

UCI and BIU are actually the names for competition rules and organizations. The biggest difference between the two is that, in UCI, if your bashguard hits, that's a point (and you want to have fewer points, like in golf). In BIU, using your bashguard is legal. You can generally go slightly higher to bash, but some people think of it as unsmooth and sometimes damaging to your obsctacle. If you're going to be gonig to bash, then you want to be able to get from back to rear easily, so BIU bikes are generally shorter than UCI style bikes and have lower BBs (usually around 0). That's not a hard and fast rule, I've seen Hermace compete BIU with his XTP (which is like 1095, with a few cms of BB height).

In some ways, we're going through a trend away from BIU. BIU was big over the past decade, that's why you'll see some of the older riders still going to bash and riding shorter bikes, like Leech, Morley and BrettM. Some of the older riders get kinda defensive about that, too, which is strange. Anyhoo, most of the trials bikes you'll find these days are gonna be UCI style, although you can find some shorter BIU/street style frames, too. I believe that UCI trend was kicked off by an Ashton frame.

Street-trials isn't really a competition style and this one is a mix of many different kinds of riding. It's a stylistic style, that is, many of the moves used are not to overcome obstacles but to look cool and have fun. Everyone also practices their own kind of street-trials riding, too. So, Danny Halroyd's and other UK folks' riding is way different (more BMX nad dirt-jumpy) than some of the stuff Leech does. The Trialskings had a very street-trials style and you can find their videos under the "Videos" link at the top of this page right below the logo. There's lots of videos there.

HTH

[bouncingbabyboy]

Maybe I just missed it, but from what I saw everyone said the problem with discs is the break tab. I see more and more people on here who are very proud of thier new dual disc bikes. Starting out a good reason to stay away from rear disc is nailing the disc on a rock when learing to side hop.

Sounds like you are on the right track with BB hieght and you have given up on the saddle. I have a saddle on my Zebdi and it serves no purpose. You can't sit on it and ride.

If you are patient you will find a good bike on here. I have seen a number of nice bikes on here lately. If you are in a hurry it doesn't cost that much more to buy new. Someone posted a good list of manufatures on here not to long ago. Haven't heard anyone recomend BT but I have never heard anything bad about them.

[FourFortyOne]

It's called a chain tensioner, for single speed. And I believe Simtra's street/trials BNB frame has vertical dropouts, as well as other bikes that I can't think of.

Real trials bikes (mods) don't have vertical dropouts (ie, no derailluer). Stocks do. :bigthumb: Weird how that works.

Gotcha...still learning.

[eturt9]

Maybe I just missed it, but from what I saw everyone said the problem with discs is the break tab. I see more and more people on here who are very proud of thier new dual disc bikes. Starting out a good reason to stay away from rear disc is nailing the disc on a rock when learing to side hop.

Yeah, older style tabs were weaker and positioned on top and aftter a while they would shear off. Newer style trials frames designed for rear disc have improved tab strength by making them beefier and/or putting them in different locations to reduce stresses from the brake. So now you really don't hear about them breaking, the only dissadvantage some would say like bbb said is hitting them on a rock. Although the wide rims and tires tend to prevent that from happening too much.

And if you really want a seat on your bike. I am selling a echo pure frame with a seat post. It can still be done.

[MultiRider]

There are other issues related to high bb bikes that some people seem as a problem, some see as benefits, some don't care.



What other issues?

Based strictly on analysis of specs available via websites, I'm liking the Echo Control and the Simtra. Both have BBs about +20mm and are 1085 and 1080 in length. Those seem like pretty middle-of-the-road specs -- not REALLY high BB, not really long or short.

Webcyclery says "The Control is made from U6 aluminum tubing and features a custom made 'dent proof' downtube. Now we're not saying that it is completely dent proof - but much more dent resistant than frames of the past. " That is very appealing to me!

The Simtra has mounts for a rear disc (very beefy looking mounts!). That appeals to me.

Any other thoughts? Are the Simtra and Control good choices? Which way would you lean for a newbie who has the basic skills (trackstands and hopping and rocking) down on his Yeti but has never swung a leg over a trials bike?

[Ravenholm]

I holeheartedly recommend the simtra. In a month or two when I get some $$$, I'm buying a Simtra ST-1 frame. God they are nice frames.

[eturt9]

What other issues?

With high bottom brackets and short stays some people feel as though they loop out more. Like when you go for a gap and end up falling off the back of the bike rather than making it.

Also, you typically run a taller longer stem on a high bb bike which gives a different feel. It's all really personal preference. Don't get too hung up on it.

[RT Wolf]

The thing about trials is:

Whatever bike you get, you get used to.

So, your middle of the road specs seem like a great idea.

Have fun!