Help on new video camera

[DangerousDave]

So I'm looking into getting a video camera and I don't really know much about them.

Ideally I'd like to get the Sony sr100 hdd camera. Although I've edited some footage that was in mpeg2 format and it didn't work in adobe which kinda sucked. Price is another downer as this camera costs near $1100 canadian.

Realistically I'll probably get a mini dv camera with similar capabilities just becuase they are a couple hundred bucks cheaper.

One question I have is if you film in widescreen 16:9 aspect ratio what does this look like when you put it onto the cpu? does it play distorted or does it just show up with black bands top and bottom?

If anyone can throw in some advice or recommend a good mini dv camera for around $500-700 canadian it would be much appreciated.

thanks

[WhiteRavenKS]

stick to mini dv. the hdd cameras are horse shit gimmicks. so are the dvd recorder ones.

most cheaper cameras dont shoot in true 16:9, they just crop off part of the chip and have those pixels recording black. it wont look distorted later if you import it in a widescreen ratio.

for cheaper cameras- sony trv's and canon opturas. both are good lines from two of the better companies.

[ronan_zj]

i am thinking to get a SONY HC1 or HC3.
but i heard I need to get extra 1394 card and cable for this camera coz its USB is only 1.1 function which is extremly slow.

[WhiteRavenKS]

only if your computer doesnt already have a firewire port.

never run any video camera off usb. all that will do is make your brain bleed on itself.

[ronan_zj]

Is High Defin video much clearer than regular one?

[firewrx612]

Is High Defin video much clearer than regular one?

Depends on what you mean.

The one I have is 1080i, vs 480i(p), so from a resolution level, it's quite a bit higher. It's not going to be any higher quality though, just because it's HD. The lens and chip are still the big factors there.

I know Kevin hates the HDD format, and he definitely knows more than I do. But I like mine :dunno: I usually down-convert videos to 720p, then I can watch them on my computer, it fills up the screen and isn't jaggy. It looks pretty damn good, I think. I also like the true 16:9, although you can get that in SD I believe.

[BrettM]

HD is a huge gimmick in the cheap cameras. Its just not noticable. What is noticable is the 3ccd technology in the cheap cameras. Basically most cameras use one 3ccd to capture the colors. There are 3 of them in 3 ccd cameras. One for yellow, blue and red. I notice way better quality and truer colors with my 3ccd camera, then in my other one.

I got the Panasonic gs120 which is aboots half the price of the HD one you mentioned Dave. Leaves room for another battery and a lens or two and what not.

I wouldn't bother with the HD or dvd stuff just yet. Possibly the hard drive cameras, but I don't know much aboots them and I'd assume if I did I wouldn't like them.

[firewrx612]

mine uses CMOS not CCD.

here's a review

http://www.sundancemediagroup.com/articles/A1U/HVR-A1U.htm

and the cheaper version

http://www.sundancemediagroup.com/articles/sony_hc1e/sony_hc1e_hdv_camcorder.htm

[WhiteRavenKS]

red, blue and green. yeah, 3 chip cameras make a bigger difference than hi-def.

hdd is hard drive recording cameras- those i hate.

hdv is something else though which is a half-way hi-def format. i just dont like it because it's more to deal with and barely anyone can even see that you shot it that way in the first place. until actual hi-def stuff is more readily available and hd-dvd and blue-ray stuff is actually available fo a reasonable price, it's mostly pointless. the main reason that hdv cameras are any good is because they do have nicer chips and lenses and features like fire said.

edit- also cmos chips seem to make softer images than ccd's. but on the other hand they can pack in more pixels and dont take up as much battery life.

[firewrx612]

red, blue and green. yeah, 3 chip cameras make a bigger difference than hi-def.

hdd is hard drive recording cameras- those i hate.

hdv is something else though which is a half-way hi-def format. i just dont like it because it's more to deal with and barely anyone can even see that you shot it that way in the first place. until actual hi-def stuff is more readily available and hd-dvd and blue-ray stuff is actually available fo a reasonable price, it's mostly pointless. the main reason that hdv cameras are any good is because they do have nicer chips and lenses and features like fire said.

edit- also cmos chips seem to make softer images than ccd's. but on the other hand they can pack in more pixels and dont take up as much battery life.

Oops, yeah got confused. Mine is HDV not HDD.

Just curious, why is HDV considered half-way hi-def? because of the amount of compression?

[toyota200x]

Where is the firewire port on a computer. I have a year and a half year old dell and I am wondering if I have it. I am also in the market for a camera but I just need to convince myself to buy one and quit worring about the cost.

[firewrx612]

Where is the firewire port on a computer. I have a year and a half year old dell and I am wondering if I have it. I am also in the market for a camera but I just need to convince myself to buy one and quit worring about the cost.

Are you sure you have one? Not all PC's do.

[tybikes]

Speaking of videos/cameras, did any of that footage come out from this weekend Erik?

[firewrx612]

Speaking of videos/cameras, did any of that footage come out from this weekend Erik?

I still need to buy a new external HD I'm fresh out of space, I haven't even looked at it yet.

Are you mostly interested in your ups to front wheel? I may be able to get a small clip together.

[rndm*dv8n]

Where is the firewire port on a computer. I have a year and a half year old dell and I am wondering if I have it. I am also in the market for a camera but I just need to convince myself to buy one and quit worring about the cost.

Hey, I have a relatively new Dell. The port is smaller than a USB and has a label "1394" (OR "IE 1394") above it. Mine is in the right hand side of the computer, next to some USB ports.

[toyota200x]

Hey, I have a relatively new Dell. The port is smaller than a USB and has a label "1394" (OR "IE 1394") above it. Mine is in the right hand side of the computer, next to some USB ports.

This is on the back, right? I checked, I don't see anything like that. :(

[tybikes]

If the footage is decent, id like to see it mostly for learning purposes. I want to study my body position on the ups to front and on my taps to see if I have the timing right etc.

If you feel like putting together some clips great, but don't feel like you have to.

[stickyworm]

Re. firewire, all macs since '98 have them, on PC, right click on "my computer" and select "properties". Hardware tab, press "device manager" button. In this list there will be a heading for firewire or under "other devices" if it's not on the list, you don't have it.

Re. HD HD is a marketing gimick umbrella term that includes ED which is "enhanced Defenition"(720p), while still high definition, it has less pixels than true HD (1080p).

Re. Hard drive cameras, JVC currently suck ass. Sony makes an okay one however consider this hard drives warp when exposed to heat, ie sunlight, left in a car. Also from running and working hard. Say you drop the camera, heaven forbid, and the disk is scratched, then it's an expensive paper weight.

In the price range Dave is talking, there are some good mini dv cameras, the panasonic 3-chip is best bang for buck in my opinion and has most mark-up, meaning more play to barter with and have stuff thrown in.

[ronan_zj]

For SONY HDV,
whats the difference between HC1 and HC1E or HC3 and HC3E

[firewrx612]

For SONY HDV,
whats the difference between HC1 and HC1E or HC3 and HC3E

I believe the HC1 is the old one and HC3 is the new one. The last letter is different for different countries(PAL version maybe?)

[ronan_zj]

u can only use bluetooth microphone on HC3.

[Total Uni]

HD is a huge gimmick in the cheap cameras. Its just not noticable. What is noticable is the 3ccd technology in the cheap cameras. Basically most cameras use one 3ccd to capture the colors. There are 3 of them in 3 ccd cameras. One for yellow, blue and red. I notice way better quality and truer colors with my 3ccd camera, then in my other one.

I got the Panasonic gs120 which is about half the price of the HD one you mentioned Dave. Leaves room for another battery and a lens or two and what not.

I wouldn't bother with the HD or dvd stuff just yet. Possibly the hard drive cameras, but I don't know much about them and I'd assume if I did I wouldn't like them.

I have the pv-gs500, I can REALLY notice a color quality rise in the 3ccd cameras. The widescreen is also very cool, Not to mention better resolution than most other one chip cameras.

[WhiteRavenKS]

u can only use bluetooth microphone on HC3.
which is about as reliable as two cups and a string. conventional wireless lav mic's are better. connecting your reciever to the camera with a cable isnt that much of a hassel. most bluetooth features like that are sales gimmicks.

here is a lot of boring tech talk, do not read unless you care:

HDV is a half way to hi-def format for a couple of reasons. it's compressed like erik said in order to be crammed onto the same tape as mini-dv if you are not shooting hdcam tapes. they call it hi-def because of the 1080 number. that sounds fancy because it's supposedly more baller than 720p. true HD is 1080 x 1920 i think and hdv is 1080 x 1440. so it does have less resolution. there is also something to do with pixel shape. i think it's that hdv uses rectangle pixels instead of square ones in order to "fake" those extra pixels up to 1920 on the long side. it's been a while since i've done any reading on this stuff so maybe dont qoute me on the numbers being accurate.

basically the reason that HDV is around is to keep a barrier between consumer and professional areas. there is no reason that sony couldnt stuff most of the practicle features of their 250 thousand dollar hd camera into some of these higher end consumer (prosumer) cameras. well, there is a reason though- why would anyone buy a $250,000 camera when a $7,000 camera does 95% of the same work...? that is why sony pushes things like hdv. they still arent done milking the professional market with their technology. pannisonic is in the same boat. canon is one of the only companies that does not have a "professional" division. they are on board with the hdv stuff with the hdxl-1 just because if they dont make one, they will lose some market share.

hd itself is kind of a big stupid mess right now. there are over 18 "standards" right now including 720i, 720p, 1080i, 1080p, all those in ntsc, all those in PAL, some "higher than hi-def" formats, 2k, 4k, 4:2:2, 4:4:4... all kinds of shit basically. there isnt much out there in terms of sharing the media either. the inconvenience of havign to shoot with a RAID near by, having to use a RAID system to edit, hd-dvd and blue ray still duking it out and both being very expensive, hi-def projectors still being outrageously priced, cable and satellite network infrstructure not being up to the task of mass delivery of true hd- all that stuff is still getting shaken out. It's best if you just let the people with lots of money (established industry companies) sort that shit out over the next few years and keep your time and money in standard def for now.

[jda]

^^ excellent post, this is the exact reason I bought a VX2100 instead of an FX1 last year.

[WhiteRavenKS]

good choice. sony vx's are great cameras. i'd have one of those if i didnt have a gl2. have you figured out all the trick to boosting saturation and stuff? im not too familiar with how to do it on the sonys but i know you can do it pretty easily. i think it's like the canon with the custom pre-sets.

[stickyworm]

Thank you WhiteRavenKS,
That sorted out some of my questions. I heard from a rep contact that the HD cameras that use compression work by recording only changing pixels. That means that if there is nothing happening in the background, then it only records the foreground. Interesting technology. It makes me want to look really close at some videos and see if I can notice. I predict that the sensor may not notice subtle changes, resulting in a lifeless picture.

[WhiteRavenKS]

yeah, that compressed recording stuff works alright... most of the time. it looks like ass if you get it against a really complicated background. watch earthed 3. the section in the spanish world cup round has a ton of spectators in the background with different colored shirts and stuff on. the camera rankin shoots with is a nice sony hdv one. the camera cant handle what's going on really and tries to make up information to fill in the blanks or whatever. what ends up happening it that is sort of pixelates or makes alias stuff in the image. there are ways around it but it all comes back to the fact that you are doing extra steps because of a new technology.

[jda]

good choice. sony vx's are great cameras. i'd have one of those if i didnt have a gl2. have you figured out all the trick to boosting saturation and stuff? im not too familiar with how to do it on the sonys but i know you can do it pretty easily. i think it's like the canon with the custom pre-sets.

I think you can change the in camera settings for saturation and sharpness but I have just left them in the default settings, I guess I would have to use colour charts and calibrate it correctly if I wanted to change the saturation but for now I'm happy to do it in post if its needed.

[WhiteRavenKS]

try playing with it in camera. clay used the vx-2000 for synopsis and hypnosis and he was telling me he had all kinds of little tricks inthe settings that made the color way more rich than default or automatic settings. i tried doing some stuff with my gl2 this year and i can get a look that is basically fake looking. i guess it's more stylistic than functional but it's way easier and less time consuming to shoot it that way than doing it in post i think. also, im jealous of your ability to do time lapse.

woo, im a video nerd. can anyone else tell?

[stickyworm]

I thought XL2 could do time lapse. My dad's does. Unfortunately it's not here, so I can't tell you how.

[WhiteRavenKS]

xl2 might, not the gl though.

[ronan_zj]

I know SONY will come out a new HDV with Hard Disk. Should I consider that one? but my question is, for HD quality, 3 mins footage need 600M , If we record 1 to 2 hours footage, gee, what capacity of Hard drive do we need ?

[Mat_P]

well im considering the sony hd camera, and im also looking at getting a 300gb external hdd for my laptop to go with it...for the simple fact i wont be able to fit a big enough hdd inside my laptop to hold all the footage.

if 3 mins = 600mb for hd quality, then its 1 min = 200mb's...2 hours is 120 mins so that would be 24gig. so my hdd will fit over 20 hours of footage....plus music and stuff im sure...and by music i clearly mean porn.

[ronan_zj]

I am saying on the new SONY HDV,HDR-SR1 AVC HD 30GB (http://www.sonystyle.com/is-bin/INTERSHOP.enfinity/eCS/Store/en/-/USD/SY_DisplayProductInformation-Start?ProductSKU=HDRSR1&Dept=cameras&CategoryName=dcc_DICamcorders_HighDefinitionVideo) Handycam Camcorder, it only has 30GB.

[Mat_P]

oh... :P
why go for hdd then? why not the dv tapes??

[ronan_zj]

oh... :P
why go for hdd then? why not the dv tapes??

maybe I think it takes a long time to transfer to ur computer?
I may wrong also coz I have no experience on DV.

[WhiteRavenKS]

transfer time should be the least of your worries. hard drive ones might dump out fast but then you get ALL the crap you shot and you end up having to spend a bunch of time throwing out all the bad shots anyways. you can batch capture or even just capture now off a dv tape. it may take longer then but you only have the good stuff on your computer afterwards.

an HDV hard drive camera might be the worst way to spend your money right now.

[ronan_zj]

since i dont have enough money for Procamera, should I go SONY HC1 or HC3?

[bash]

Don't buy HC3. It has bad vertical resolution - like top SD cameras.

FX1 it too expensive and huge for consumes who want to ride and shoot at the same time.


Don't buy SD (mini-dv) cameras ( HDD & DVD is real shit )

AVC-HD is cool but !!! the bitrate used for AVC-HD is less than for HDV.

may be the new codec compensates this. But it's really hard to work with such material. You will need supercomputers. DUAL-Xeons and so on ...

My cam:

http://photofile.ru/photo/bash666/1218472/34890486.jpg



The snapshots:

http://photofile.ru/photo/bash666/1218472/34890474.jpg


The snapshot from footage with shaking camera and fast moves (deinterlaced):

http://photofile.ru/photo/bash666/1218472/34890504.jpg




Now compare with the trial videos you usually download from internet and think do you need HD camera or not.

[WhiteRavenKS]

rofls.

do you honestly think that the video quality of something you download is like what comes straight off the camera? who gives a shit what compressed video downloaded from the net looks like. that's even more argument for buying an SD camera if all you want to do is ride and shoot with your bros.

i'd like to hear why HDD and DVD cameras are the real shit? unless you mean literal shit. in which case- yeah, that's true.

what's this about verticle resolution beign bad on the hc3- it's the same hdv crap coming off all those sonys.

[stickyworm]

man those stills had some serious archiving, which if you don't know what means, you obviously would think they look nice. Oh did you notice as stated earlier, dvd cams can't be used in editing without ripping software that usually doesn't preserve quality and is usually illegal... yah, and hd cameras, don't drop them or leave them in the car because the hard drive will warp and then they're garbage. If you're gonna drop a grand on the latest techy crap, get a decent vx or gl off of ebay or from a used section of a camera store.

[ronan_zj]

man those stills had some serious archiving, which if you don't know what means, you obviously would think they look nice. Oh did you notice as stated earlier, dvd cams can't be used in editing without ripping software that usually doesn't preserve quality and is usually illegal... yah, and hd cameras, don't drop them or leave them in the car because the hard drive will warp and then they're garbage. If you're gonna drop a grand on the latest techy crap, get a decent vx or gl off of ebay or from a used section of a camera store.

are u saying SONY HC1 and HC3 are not considered to buy?

[WhiteRavenKS]

re-read the thread. hdv is tech weenie stuff. the main reason they are worth buying is that they do have decent chips, decent lenses, and have decent manual options which means that the camera can make a good looking image (for video)... but so does a nice standard def camera.

what i think is hilarious about bash's camera is that if hdv is really supposed to be all that baller then what is a piece of crap add-on lens doing on the front of it?

new codecs need super computers? uhhh... not really. and dual xeons are not exatcly super computers.

[stickyworm]

I couldn't find info on sony's site re hc-1
here's hc-3
http://www.sonystyle.ca/commerce/servlet/ProductDetailDisplay?storeId=10001&langId=-1&catalogId=10001&productId=1002547&navigationPath=n32080n100027
1799.99 CAD!
Consider that a gl2 with extras commonly go for just over $1500 US on ebay.
and here's a dvx 1000 http://cgi.ebay.com/Sony-VX-1000_W0QQitemZ250028986652QQihZ015QQcategoryZ20333 QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
Both of these cameras have been used to produce professional snowboarding and other extreme sports videos and have significantly smaller price tags, with much more artistic control and possibilities. I usually don't condone ebay, but I am more nervouse about so much money spent on the latest gimick which will be half the price next year. The only benefit I see in current consumer level models is that they are small and on a true hd screen you may see more clarity.

[WhiteRavenKS]

oh yeah- as of last i heard, NO ONE will broadcast hdv. so dont let someone tell you it's a "professional" format. some people might shoot in it but it gets down-res'ed before it's shown to mass audiences.

[WhiteRavenKS]

if you want something else too look for and have a little more money- the sony PD cameras are excellent. the pd-150 and 170 are two of the best cameras i've ever worked with. i'd rather work with a pd-170 than the new hfx's.

[jda]

I couldn't find info on sony's site re hc-1

Here's a detailed review

http://www.camcorderinfo.com/content/Sony-HCR-HC1-Review.htm

[ronan_zj]

this thread is confusing me right now
OK, restate it : HD- high definition. not Hard Drive.
HDD ,well, hard drive camcorder.
HDV , High definition camcorder.

[bash]

Standart defenition is 720*480(576) and i think that it's a low resolution to watch fullscreen videos on PC or Big TV panels (HD-panels for sure)

If you don't need the high resolution, ok. You can buy a SD camera but you must know that the good camera like PANASONIC GS-400 costs a lot.

About the lenses - it's Raynox HD-3030. It's issue is incompatibilyty with big zoom. In wide angle it's ok. The screenshot is taken with this "crappy" optics.


HC3 has less true vertical resolution. It's also hdv but the real resolution is not 1080. It's about 600. The low-end SD cameras have 400-450. HC1 has 750.

DVD and HDD. They use 9 mbit bitrate mpeg 2. And not multipass - a realtime encoding. So it's quality can't be good. Do you like the quality of DVD-films?? I think it's crap.

DVD and HDD cameras are for lazy guys who want to burn the footage direct to dvd withous editing.

If you want to shoot and edit - don't buy dvd\hdd cameras which compress into mpeg2 9 mbit.

But if you want to ride and sometimes to shoot your friend's big tap, may be theres no need to buy good camera.

If you want to Shoot, edit and sometimes ride - buy sony HDR-FX1. it's awesome.

[MIKE1968]

I have a camera from 2002 :dunno: I press record and look at stuff.



In OLDSCHOOL we trust !


oh the irony..

[ronan_zj]

hmmmmmmmmm, maybe I should go for HC3.
since HC1 is out of market already.

[lucky13]

What program do you guys use to import and edit?

I'm thinking of skiping a new frame in favor of getting set up for vid,..Tired of no camera running when the good stuff is happening.

[WhiteRavenKS]

final cut for macs- final cut studio is like 700 or more for students. just final cut express is like 300.

for pc- adobe premier pro. much more readily available to steal. no one in the professional world really uses premier but it gets the job done all the same.

for both- avid. you can get avid express for like 250 or something.

any of those three will import/edit/export just fine for anything you need to do.

[firewrx612]

I use FCE HD, awesome if you have a Mac, not so much if you don't. Otherwise an Adobe product?

[lucky13]

This:

http://shop4.outpost.com/{F65K23AaSYQ6NXv3gaPujQ**.node2}/product/4742759;jsessionid=F65K23AaSYQ6NXv3gaPujQ**.node2? site=sr:SEARCH:MAIN_RSLT_PG

+

http://www.twenty20camera.com/helmetcamera.php

=

Fun at the critical mass, Whistler, etc,..

[firewrx612]

This:

http://shop4.outpost.com/{F65K23AaSYQ6NXv3gaPujQ**.node2}/product/4742759;jsessionid=F65K23AaSYQ6NXv3gaPujQ**.node2? site=sr:SEARCH:MAIN_RSLT_PG

+

http://www.twenty20camera.com/helmetcamera.php

=

Fun at the critical mass, Whistler, etc,..

I personally can't stand those vertical format cameras, but that's personal preference I suppose.

[lucky13]

I don't have a preference yet.

If I could get some hands on I'd be stoked. Guess I'll have to shop in the real retail world <shudder>.

[RT Wolf]

I tend to use Sony Vegas, it's interface is simpler and easier to pick up than premiere's or final cut's and it's easier to use for shorter videos. For longer ones (or just lots and lots of footage), premiere is primo on PC and Final Cut on Mac.

[music_maj_34]

I know this is an older thread, but even after reading this I'm still not sure what I should look into for a video camera. (I'm clueless when it comes to this stuff)

I really don't have a lot of money, so I would like to get a camera for under $400.

I'm hoping to get something that I can still edit somewhat.

Also - something that is semi easy to upload, so I can share videos on here.

Should I totally stay away from mini DVDs or DVD cameras?

What are some cameras that you could recommend for this price range?

[DangerousDave]

So after all this I bought a Canon Elura 100. Its easy to use and works well with the exception of the motor noise, but it has an external mic jack so i can fix that. I stayed away from dvd or hard drive cameras because it seemed like a pain in the ass to upload footage. dvd's seem really frigin gay and my experience with using the mpeg-2 clips that come of off the hard drive cams is not good. There could be better programs to edit them, but from my experience i didn't like it.

[WhiteRavenKS]

please stick to mini-dv. you will be pulling your hair out with dvd and hdd cameras. mini-dv is easy enough to get the footage on your computer- just need a firewire cable to do that.

at the sub-400 range, everything is more or less going to be the same and have kinda the same features. i'd still stick to sony and canon as the top two, after that panisonic and jvc. lots of sales right now all over with the holiday season- you could probably find something in your range that will work fine for recrational use.

[music_maj_34]

Ok, thanks. So I just need to make sure that the camera I am looking for has a firewire jack. (Whatever it is called)

Do they normally come with the firewire or do I have to buy that seperate?

[RT Wolf]

I don't think they come with firewire cables. Kinda like printer cables, they hate you.

Make sure your computer also has a firewire port. If not, you may have to purchase an inexpensive firewire card.

[lucky13]

I was closing on a purchase and was frustrated by the slackjawed teenagers at Bestbuy. Good thing too,.. I just opened the sunday paper and found an ad from the camera shop down the street from where I live (Best buy was a trek by singlespeed into MALL LAND) for 20%off Sony and Panasonic camcorders.

[hophopsnap]

I just got a canon zr500 for christmas, and I had to pick up a 40$ firewire cable at radioshack, such a ripoff, but I use imovie and thats all I really need to get stuff on video.

[ronan_zj]

I just got a canon zr500 for christmas, and I had to pick up a 40$ firewire cable at radioshack, such a ripoff, but I use imovie and thats all I really need to get stuff on video.

get a monster and return ur cable from radioshack.