Friggin Heatsink pads

[carnagr]

Well I just ground my rim for the first time tonight. I've heard of all the great things a grind can do, so now, I have a grind. I was going down a big hill, and coming up to the intersection, so I start to slow down. I'm coming to a stop, but the whole time, my brake keeps getting looser and looser. I look down, and what'ya know? Half my pad is gone!!! On one side I have a red pad, and one side a white one, and the white one is at least half gone, and the red one is still completely intact. This is fucking gay, as at this rate, I will have no pad after another hour of riding :hsugh:. Anyone else have this happen to their Heatsink whites?

[MIKE1968]

Uh...First off never brake with your rear brake if you are riding anywhere, that is probably the #1 reason for using a disk.


Secondly, never do that on a fresh grind with any pads or the results will be the same.


Sorry for your loss.

[eturt9]

Don't ride the fucking brakes. They are meant for locked or not locked, not slowing down a hill. What did u expect?

[carnagr]

OK well sorry, I've never had a grind, I did not know. Well that fucking sucks. Good to know though, I'll never do it again. Fortunately I have some replacement rubber in my basement I can put in...

[ronan_zj]

Grind gives u instantly brake power for trialsbike. if u do DownHill, well, u need buy another pairs.

[carnagr]

As much as a great part of this is my fault, I still stand that the red compound is still almost completely fine, and the white one got really chewed up.

[MIKE1968]

That means a few possible things:

1. The white pad is 138013 better...grabs under more conditions, softer.

2. The red pad is designed more for harsh grinds...and won't work that well without them.

3. I've been sober for a week and I'm actually posting at 9:30pm about brake pads.

[digby]

I too am sober, but I plan on that changing sometime in the next 10 minutes.

you can always use your foot on the rear tire to slow you down if you dont have a disk.

Going down a hill dragging your brake on a fresh grind probably means you'll have to regrind it.

[TTownJon]

starting the first beer here....

I'm pretty sure that the red and whites are identical minus color...

[Mat_P]

i rock the blue heatsinks, cant fault them other than my bike is stupidly loud.
i never use my brakes to slow me down, i just put a foot on the ground and if the hill is really steep i just walk down so i dont trash my shoes either.
my grind is a couple of months old as well...using brakes to slow down on a trials bike is no good.

*note, i have front hs33's as well, no disc yet*

[carnagr]

Yeah alright, I've got a front disk, so from now on, that's what I shall do. I never knew that the pads wouldn't hold up, but thanks a ton for the responses guys.

[xALmoN]

why do you use different compounds on each side?

[carnagr]

One of my backings stripped out a while ago, so Steve sent me another backing, with a pad already in it. The pad happened to be red, while my other was white. I was under the impression, however, and still am, that the compounds are identical other than colour as TTownJohn said, which is why I'm so confused as to why one wore so much faster than the other.

[carnagr]

I just e-mailed Steve at Heatsink Bikes about this issue, and he has been far more than kind to my problem. He is sending me a new red pad refill free of charge (as the red pad held up, and the white didn't), and has offered me a deal on other Heatsink products. This goes above and beyond anything I would have expected, and is far more than he is obliged to do. If any of you were thinking of buying any Heatsink products, do it, as Steve is a great guy. If you have any issues with his products, he will sort you out promptly, because he backs his products 100%, and I have had nothing but good dealings with him.

[tomacropod]

Steve is indeed a good guy. When you consider dragging your brake just thing about how long nice piece of pecorino cheese survives against the grater.

- Joel

[KMT]

On the heatsink page:

"The red pads are the same compound as the white pads previously available. The red pads offer the same great performance as the whites and an improved build quality."

So which is true? Same or not the same?

I plan to buy a red one, so i'm really curious.

(I don't really want to grind my rims.)

I have an unsure idea that his white one is half gone because of the different rotation of the grinding.
I cant explain it lucidly, but it depends on the direction of the grinder and the wheel, (which is rolling the same direction).

(If he had been rolling backwards when braking, the white one would have been intact, and the red one would have been gone...) :wuteva:

Any ideas?

[xALmoN]

i doubt thats the case, as the grinds i've seen, are all vertically along the rim wall, so i doubt it depends on the direction of the grinder and the wheel.

And about the red pads, they did say improved build quality, yeah? And same performance, so it might not be the same compound. Infact, i dont think its the same compound at all.

But then again, i've only used the blue pads, so i can't comment much.

[KMT]

Ok, so i'm not good enough in english to explain it, so i painted...

don't laugh
http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/9750/padd6ti.jpg


So the surface of the rim is maybe not the same, it depends on how you held the grinder...
In this case (pic) the red one will wear faster i think.

One of my friends experienced that his right pad wore faster then the left one did, and they were the same pads. I can't imagine another reason of it. :dunno:

[zealot_53]

KMT']Ok, so i'm not good enough in english to explain it, so i painted...

don't laugh
http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/9750/padd6ti.jpg


So the surface of the rim is maybe not the same, it depends on how you held the grinder...
In this case (pic) the red one will wear faster i think.

One of my friends experienced that his right pad wore faster then the left one did, and they were the same pads. I can't imagine another reason of it. :dunno:

That makes good sense. It could also be that one side's grind was a bit harsher.

Steve sounds like an awesome dude to do business with. I'll get heatsinks for sure.

[Cryo-Cube]

Well I just ground my rim for the first time tonight. I've heard of all the great things a grind can do, so now, I have a grind. I was going down a big hill, and coming up to the intersection, so I start to slow down. I'm coming to a stop, but the whole time, my brake keeps getting looser and looser. I look down, and what'ya know? Half my pad is gone!!!
http://misc.todoke.de/no_wayz.jpg

[MIKE1968]

Or it could be because maguras are horrible and one piston pushed way harder than the other...which is what happens with maguras- one pushes into the rim, once it hits the rim with enough pressure THEN the other side goes..

[trialsrider50]

Or it could be because maguras are horrible and one piston pushed way harder than the other...which is what happens with maguras- one pushes into the rim, once it hits the rim with enough pressure THEN the other side goes..

thank god. I was hoping someone would put this together in their mind.
more about the alcohol topic. the other day i woke up naked in a strange bathroom puking into the sink. take it and run people.

[MIKE1968]

I know a guy who passed out while shitting and threw up at the same time...woke up in his own shit and vomit in a strange bathroom.

And I was speaking german with him only a few hours before.

[rush]

I know a guy who passed out while shitting and threw up at the same time...woke up in his own shit and vomit in a strange bathroom.

And I was speaking german with him only a few hours before.

I heard there were pics?

[rush]

Steve is indeed a good guy. When you consider dragging your brake just thing about how long nice piece of pecorino cheese survives against the grater.

- Joel

Mmmm pecorino :drool:

[Rodmunch]

Or it could be because maguras are horrible and one piston pushed way harder than the other...which is what happens with maguras- one pushes into the rim, once it hits the rim with enough pressure THEN the other side goes..
I gotta disagree with that. I believe the reasone one pad moves first is most likely its distance away from the lever. Also, slight friction differences between the two calipers can cause one to 'stick' while the other moves, but this wouldn't cause such wear. Once the first pad hits the rim, the other will move, and once they both hit the rim, there is practically an equal amount of force exerted by each pad on the rim.

If one pad were doing all the work, you couldn't stop the bike. The rim would just deflect out of the way and it would take forever to slow down. I think there is definitely a difference in pad compound between his white and red pads.

[KMT]

Now i really don't know what to think :)
Everyone seems to be right. We well never find out this.

[darkside]

except you don't grab a bunch of brake just to slow down. If he was only moderating his speed, he could have very well been only using one pad.

That, or he ground one side a lot better than the other.

I would believe heatsink when they say the compound didn't change. There's no reason to lie about that.

[Elan]

That means a few possible things:

3. I've been sober for a week and I'm actually posting at 9:30pm about brake pads.




:gaybar:

im going to wyoming tonight, i wont be back until monday, ill be drunk the whole time. lakes ftw.

[eturt9]

I kinda agree with the grind direction. Most people probably grind both sides the same CCW or clock wise and that leads to reverse teeth marks.. Dunno, how much that affects though.

Did the pad wear completely evenly (aka flat ) because if the worn pad wasn't lined up to hit completely flat, it will wear much faster than the flat one.

[AndyT]

I gotta disagree with that. I believe the reasone one pad moves first is most likely its distance away from the lever. Also, slight friction differences between the two calipers can cause one to 'stick' while the other moves, but this wouldn't cause such wear. Once the first pad hits the rim, the other will move, and once they both hit the rim, there is practically an equal amount of force exerted by each pad on the rim.

If one pad were doing all the work, you couldn't stop the bike. The rim would just deflect out of the way and it would take forever to slow down. I think there is definitely a difference in pad compound between his white and red pads.

I've been riding trials for 7 years. 7 of those years has been on magura brakes. I've had every make and model, and multiples of each. Don't argue.

[carnagr]

Or it could be because maguras are horrible and one piston pushed way harder than the other...which is what happens with maguras- one pushes into the rim, once it hits the rim with enough pressure THEN the other side goes..

If I ran magura's and not vees, I could see how that might happen ;). Since I run vees that are set-up properly, I highly doubt that's the reason.

[Peace]

VEES AND MAGURAS WEAR OUT ONE PAD FASTERRRRR!!!

Which ever side the cable or hose goes into first will wear out first... if you dont want that to happen... buy cantilevers or do that v split hose thing to your maguras.... but i hear that was pretty weak...

Peace

edit: i cant beleive there are only a few ppl that know this...

[carnagr]

But both my pads hit the rim at the same time?

[Peace]

doesnt matter, more force is applied on the calliper that holds the noodle.....I cant explain why.

Peace

[lucky13]

I"ve made that mistake once,.. late for work DH'n the trials bike from session spot in the morning,... end up with cheese grating Plaz pad all over my pants.

I've since upgraded to disc.

[carnagr]

This makes me wish I didn't have a like 300 dollar vee, or I would definitely have a disc.

[trialsrider50]

it's simple guys. a master a slave cylinder. yes with no back pressure both pads can move equally but with pressure the master cylinder is the first to have pressure applied, once that pressure reaches a certain amount, the remaining fluid is dispersed into the slave cylinder. from there it's just a cycle the harder you grab.
also, you were dumb to ride your brake down a hill with a grind. natural selection as far as I'm concerned. Seriously, think about it.

[Rodmunch]

I've been riding trials for 7 years. 7 of those years has been on magura brakes. I've had every make and model, and multiples of each. Don't argue.
That's so great! I'm happy for you! Still, I felt like giving some input. Who knows, maybe there's some truth to my idea, maybe there's some truth to yours. I now agree that the different direction in grind or difference in grind harshness between sides would be the most likely problems, since Steve says the compounds are the same. Oh, by the way, I'll argue all I want. You just try to stop me.
:joshers:

[rush]

http://www.ucalgary.ca/~jdlepp/ethug.jpg

[Peace]

:rofl:

it doesnt matter about the grind direction or compoud.... its just the fact that the calliper that the hose/cable goes into will push against the rim a little harder than the other side.

truth.

Peace

[Rodmunch]

LOL at the e-thug. I guess that's me?

Peace, I don't think that's the case here. I know I don't have much credibility around here, but I do have a degree in mechanical engineering, so I'm not clueless when it comes to hydraulics. I'll try to spell out what is most likely happening, in my opinion:

1. He pulls on the lever. One pad moves before the other and hits the rim. This is common with Maguras since one caliper is closer to the lever than the other.

2. Once the first pad hits the rim, the second pad will move toward the rim because both calipers are being fed by the same hydraulic circuit. The first pad is hardly exerting any force on the rim. It is doing a very small amount of stopping, mostly just deflecting the rim out of the way.

3. He pulls enough on the lever to actually exert enough force to slow down the bike. Now both pads are touching the rim. Because both calipers are being fed by the same hydraulic circuit, each caliper must now exert the same amount of force on the rim, give or take a few percent difference due to friction in the calipers.

4. There are 3 possibilities at this point that I can think of which can explain the difference in wear between the two pads: 1. The pads are of different compounds, one softer than the other. This could be possible...maybe Steve had different compounds and forgot. Maybe there was a mixup when they made the pads. 2. The grind on one side is much harsher than the other. 3. The grind on one side is in a different direction than the other and harsh enough to cause the wear, as posted by [HUN]KMT.

So there's my opinion. I try to help, I get shunned. Oh well, such is the internet.

[jackflash]

hes got vees...

[Rodmunch]

Haha, I totally missed that! Thanks for clearing that up though.

So it must be either a difference in compound, grind harshness or grind direction.

[trialsin usa]

Hydraulics......... pressure is uniform. Force or pressure does not "reach one caliper first". I do not have engineering degree, however cursory search of the net....and this fact is never in dispute. Furthermore, if this were the case, why don't pads on Monty bikes that have line splitter move at the same time?

One pad moves before the other (as eluded to earlier), because the friction of one slave cylinder piston is ever so slightly more than the other. However, the difference (unless defective or just a pair of brakes that are hammered and should be thrown out) is so slight that the moment the first pad touches rim the next begins to move in. You would have to hold the lever in a very precise position for extended ammount of time to have pads wear unevenly.

Leaves what for explanation? The material being the same. Leaving only one thing :
1. Grind was different (harsher....whatever) from one side to the other of the rim.


EDIT: he has Vees eh... well, reasons remain the same.

[trialsrider50]

not too argue too much, but it's not a matter of reaching a caliper first. it's a matter of passing through the master before traveling to the slave. fact is, everything is inefficient. there's always loss. so most of us can pull the lever on our maggies a little and one pad will move more or less than the other. Usually the master will move first but not always, if the master is sticky then the slave will move first. but under optimal circumstances, fluid is pushed into the master cylinder and when it begins to overflow, the overflow goes to the slave cyclinder. if you are just barely riding your brake, you are not pushing enough fluid to provide this overflow so only one compresses. If this were a direct hydraulic system then both would move in uniform.

[Rodmunch]

So carnagr, did this help you?

Trialsrider50, are you in engineering? I remember a post where you said something about your school and engineering. Am I thinking of someone else?

[trialsin usa]

Just of clarification, the Master cylinder is located in the lever. There are two slave cylinders, where the pads click into. The oil actually does not pass through the first slave.... it is already there.... just not presurized until the lever is pulled. Like a half blown up balloon, when you ad air.... the pressure is added uniformly all around the inside of the balloown pushing outward.... not at the closest spot to filling point. In this respect priciples of hydraulics and pnuematics are the same.

Lastly, if you have installed enough of these things....... you know it is not always the same side that moves in first. Thus, lending creadance to the factories explanation of slight deviation in friction.

[rush]

I squeeze my brake.

My pads hit the rim.

They stop my wheel from turning good style.

I let the lever go.

They stop touching the rim.

The wheel turns again.

[carnagr]

Yes this has helped me. I will never do what I did again, but my pads are still wearing constantly as I ride. Every half hour or so I have to turn the adjuster on my lever to make it tighter to compensate for the lack of pad material.

[Peace]

it wont wear as fast on your second set of pads.

[carnagr]

Sarcasm?

[Peace]

haha no im serious, the grind will have bed in (i guess its called bedding in) and not be so nasty.

[GarthMc]

I squeeze my brake.

My pads hit the rim.

They stop my wheel from turning good style.

I let the lever go.

They stop touching the rim.

The wheel turns again.

HOOOORAYYY!!!
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Can everyone else just shut the fuck up now? PM each other if you want to have an engineering wang competition.

-Garth

[lucky13]

When I grind my wang on one side it gets red, so I shift my weight and work the other side.

It depends on whether or not the grind is "bedded in".

[trialsrider50]

yeah for wang slinging! trialsin's right though, i pulled a dumb on the master cyclinder part and no I do not have a engineering degree, just a mechanical mind. none the less as trialsin said. after using enough of these you'll notice that one pad moves before the other sometimes. so the whole difference in grind theory should be shot. i'm done.

[carnagr]

Well I got the new pad that Steve sent me for free, and I find it hard to believe that the red and white are the same compound. The second I put it on, my brake was WAY stiffer, and had a TON more bite, and power.

[Rodmunch]

HOOOORAYYY!!!
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.
.
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Can everyone else just shut the fuck up now? PM each other if you want to have an engineering wang competition.

-Garth

Yeah it was getting a little silly huh? But trialsrider50, your description still made sense in that there are 2 cylinders...one before the other. I understood what you meant.

So the pads are different compounds? Good to know it worked out.

[heatsink]

Hi,

Some info which might clear up some things!

The white and red pads are the same compound, but processed by different suppliers.

This case is very strange! I'd never heard of such a rapid wearing white pad in the 2 years since they've been out there ridden. I keep a very open feedback path on my products via reading forum feedback and talking to riders. Felix got 9 months of riding out of his first white pair and all feedback had previously praised their longevity.

I made the move to the new supplier (then changing colour to enable traceability) simply because they were able to offer me a way to improve the build quality of the pads, part of my eternal quest to keep improving them even if it's only a small tweak. If in addition the processing is better controlled resulting in even better dynamic performance then this is good news :)

I hope that your replacement red pads continue to impress Curtis, and I was glad to be able to reinstate your faith in my pads.

Steve

[trialsrider50]

Steve Rules. I gotta say my heatsink pads are awesome. I bought two pair and have been using the one pair for like 4 months and I'm pretty sure I'll get at least 3 or 4 more out of them. I have the blue magura ones but I'm curious to know how those cnc backings are working. I'm dying to try some. Anyways, we should always give some props to the guys like steve who work hard to make sure all of us have nothing but the best in brake pads. Thanks bro.

[carnagr]

True that. It's especially true when we're drunk as fuck, and still manage to type with (I think) no spelling errors GO STEVE!

[lucky13]

I wish I had some Cous-sinks, but my PMG's are still about half a life left to them.

[trialsrider50]

p.s. who is the u.s. distributor for Heatsink these days. I bought mine a while ago and frankly have no idea who I got them from? I'm thinking some of those cnc'd magura pads need to find their way to my bike.

*EDIT* I guess I could've check the site before posting. found em. www.whackcycles.com (http://www.whackcycles.com) and www.puretrials.com (http://www.puretrials.com)

[aki]

Blue HS33 pads and the aluminum CNC red V-pads in stock. Refillable pads & V-adapters will be next :)

[jake1516]

p.s. who is the u.s. distributor for Heatsink these days. I bought mine a while ago and frankly have no idea who I got them from? I'm thinking some of those cnc'd magura pads need to find their way to my bike.

*EDIT* I guess I could've check the site before posting. found em. www.whackcycles.com (http://www.whackcycles.com) and www.puretrials.com (http://www.puretrials.com)

I probobly should have ordered mine from them instead of Steve himself, A week tomorrow and still I have recieved nothing, despite the website clearly stating that delivery is 2-3 days.

At £15 for a pair I'm pretty fucked off. Had I known it would have taken so long I'd have made another choice, this weekend was lost due to having no brake pads....

:wuteva:

Edit: the website actually says 1-2 days delivery... make of that what you want....

[KMT]

I probobly should have ordered mine from them instead of Steve himself, A week tomorrow and still I have recieved nothing, despite the website clearly stating that delivery is 2-3 days.

At £15 for a pair I'm pretty fucked off. Had I known it would have taken so long I'd have made another choice, this weekend was lost due to having no brake pads....

:wuteva:

Edit: the website actually says 1-2 days delivery... make of that what you want....


And?

Now it's better that you wrote it? It won't be faster...

[heatsink]

I've been struggling to keep up with demand here in the UK, and in addition build up stocks to supply distributors overseas. I apologise to all riders who have been dissappointed with me not being able to get orders out as quick as I want. I did put a news item on my site, but this will have moved down the page now. Updating the delivery times given on my site is my next priority so that the current delays are crystal clear.

Riders love the pad performance, it's just the manufacturing that needs to be sped up. Since the beginning I've always gone for whatever compound works best pad wise, putting performance above slow manufacturing processes. I think this is why the pads have become so popular with riders. Now however, I have to optimise the speed of manufacture with the challenge being that this shouldn't compromise pad performance.

It's a wonder how I've ever kept HeatsinkBikes running since I have a full time Engineering job, and at the end of this year will be a Dad for the second time! The game plan for the second half of 2006 is to focus on the existing products (particularily the ever popular Vees which I am always behind with supplying!) , transforming production methods via investment, and only then turn my attention to any major new components in the range.

Soon I hope riders will find getting hold of my pads will be super speedy, whether it's via a distributor (no more delays for them receiving pads from me) or via me direct.

Thanks to everyone for their patience and support.

Steve

P.S. Jake, I've enclosed an extra free pair of pads for you in your parcel (posting tomorrow). I wish I could have got the pads sent out to you in time for the weekend, so I hope this rather extraordinarily generous compensation goes some way to making up for things.

[Chris]

That's nice!

[rush]

Service. Nice work.

[eturt9]

I almost feel guilty that I don't have a pair. Gonna have to order some.