Hope disk experience?

[BrettM]

So I'm sitting here debating sinking another almost hundred into my cable disk to make it feel like a hydro.

So I'm thinking of trying pretty much the only hydro disk brand I've never tried. Hope has a decent rep. for not leaking right? Here are my thoughts. Throw out the Hope trials brake. I have no idea what makes it great so in my opinion its just another xc brake with the word trials engraved on it. It's meant for the front not rear.

But...I was looking at that 6 piston Ti monster. It will actually end up lighter than a rear Avid setup. I'm not sure if it will fit in my frame yet tho. But anyways I was thinking...I've always used 2 piston brakes. The Maguras did alright on the rear, but they were 160 mm tho. The Avid sucked. 3 rides. It was 203 tho. What I was thinking is maybe 6 pistons is a third less stress taken off the pistons kinda sorta? Maybe this will help them from not leaking. I've always thought Hopes were pretty good for not leaking in general.

But...I read they use an adaptor...is it goofy or is it a 160 to 203 mm adaptor? Anyone used them? How are Hope's pads? Any good aftermarket pad suggestions? Anyone know how the warranty part would be? Basically anything you can fill me in on would be great. I'm clueless here.

[ACR]

the 6 pistons on the Hope make it have a little more modulation supposedly. The 6 pistons are smaller to pretty much equal the piston size of the 2 larger pistons in the Mono Mini (or Mono m4). For front brake, might as well try it and let us know. For rear brake it seems like the Mono Trials would be a good idea.

[BrettM]

the 6 pistons on the Hope make it have a little more modulation supposedly. The 6 pistons are smaller to pretty much equal the piston size of the 2 larger pistons in the Mono Mini (or Mono m4). For front brake, might as well try it and let us know. For rear brake it seems like the Mono Trials would be a good idea.
Why the hell would Mono trials be a good idea? Does anyone actually have a reason???

[ACR]

supposedly, allegedly, i've heard that the piston size is larger which translates into a higher clamping force with less modulation (can lead to slipping). I'm not sure though.

[BrettM]

I always thought more pistons were the way to go for better clamping, aka why dh riders use it and not xc riders.

[ACR]

no, they use it because it looks pimp. I've read on the MTBR boards that many people are having trouble with them. They simply won't grab hard enough. The only reason for more pistons is for modulation. I think the smaller pistons hit the disc first, which helps with modulation. If you look at an M6 caliper body, the pistons are all different sizes.

[BrettM]

Where do I find pics or info on this damn trials brake?

[Giant1118]

Brett debating on using a hydro...i nver thought i would see the day. Why 100 bucks to make it feel good again.

onto the hydro topic. I would think that you would be better off with the 6 piston Hope DH brake but really i have no experience and i dont think anyone else here would either.

[BrettM]

I made the mistake of riding a bike with a hyrdo rear brake. Ask anyone my rear cable disk feels as good as possible...but it still has that cable feel. I want that solid feeling, like a front cable, but in the rear.

I was debating getting Nokon cables.

Let me guess. The trials brake comes in standard mount only??

[ronan_zj]

for 6 piston Ti monster, dont u think is to heavy?

[BrettM]

for 6 piston Ti monster, dont u think is to heavy?
Any idea how much a rear cable disk caliper setup weighs? I do. More than a 6 piston Ti monster.

[KeepRollin]

Well I don't know anything about the 6 piston, but as far as leaking is concerned. I have had run front and rear mini's on my trials bike for over a year and half without any leaking and only bled them once. I'm using kool-stop pads. EBC Red pads definitely are better for dry but the kool-stops don't crap out when it gets wet and I ride around streams a lot so I opted for them and the dry grip is still decent. I don't know how they compare the the EBC golds I haven't tried them. That's all the help I am.

[WhiteRavenKS]

Let me guess. The trials brake comes in standard mount only??
this one time i read about these crazy devices that conpensated for that. i think the inventor was James T. Adaptor.

as for solid feel, any hydro system is going to have flex. just because the fluid inside doesnt compress doesnt mean the calipers dont expand, the lever flexes, etc... a dialed avid feels as solid to me as any hydro disk ive ever felt.

and the 6 piston hope has lots of power but it's designed for dh use where power is supposed to come with modulation. it's designed to slow a spinning wheel, not keep a static one from getting started. while it does have plenty of power for trials use i dont see why you wouldnt want to just get the trials one in the first place. and as for your comment about it being a standard xc one with the word trials on it- i dont think that could be any farther from the truth. ive known several riders who used the mini and mini-mono and even with larger rotors, better and cleaner set ups, all that- they have not felt as powerful as my trials version with a shitty set up. ive had lots of trouble with my trials-hope but even with all that crap going on it puts the regular brake to shame.

just my opinion.

[BrettM]

this one time i read about these crazy devices that conpensated for that. i think the inventor was James T. Adaptor.

as for solid feel, any hydro system is going to have flex. just because the fluid inside doesnt compress doesnt mean the calipers dont expand, the lever flexes, etc... a dialed avid feels as solid to me as any hydro disk ive ever felt.

and the 6 piston hope has lots of power but it's designed for dh use where power is supposed to come with modulation. it's designed to slow a spinning wheel, not keep a static one from getting started. while it does have plenty of power for trials use i dont see why you wouldnt want to just get the trials one in the first place. and as for your comment about it being a standard xc one with the word trials on it- i dont think that could be any farther from the truth. ive known several riders who used the mini and mini-mono and even with larger rotors, better and cleaner set ups, all that- they have not felt as powerful as my trials version with a shitty set up. ive had lots of trouble with my trials-hope but even with all that crap going on it puts the regular brake to shame.

just my opinion.
For starters I figured it was just an xc brake with trials on it because thats all I've ever seen. All I hear is it works good. I want to know why. I trust very few peoples opinions. I want to see the reasons why.

They make adaptors to make this trials brake mount onto a 160 mm post mount? They also make them slim enough for my brake to fit in between my stays??? I'm betting no...

As for the feel my front Avid feels as great as any hydro setup. I take it you aren't running a rear Avid. It feels not bad, but not near as good as any hydro setup.

What kinda trouble you having with the trials hope? Pm me if you want to do it that way...

[WhiteRavenKS]

I always thought more pistons were the way to go for better clamping, aka why dh riders use it and not xc riders.
brake power is a sneaky bitch. dh bikes obviously weigh a lot more than an xc bike and are going to need to slow down a lot faster from higher speeds than an xc bike as well. so they need more power. that doesnt mean that raw power is good. a locked up wheel is going to be out of control and not slow you down very well. that's why modulation matters to dh people. doesnt matter how much power you have if you are just going to have a brake that is effectively on or off (a huge complaint of hayes brakes for a long time, the new el caminos are designed to address this). having multiple pistons allows for the pads to engage at different times with varying pressures and spreads out the brake's power rather than having it on/off- a big reason people tend to like 4 pistons xt's or 4/6 pistons hope's over the two piston hayes.

modulation in trials, not so important.

[Stikman]

What about running a Magura Gustav? Has anyone tried one on their trials bike?

As for the whole cable vs. hydro debate, I agree with WhiteRaven.

Anyway, you could always run V's or Maggies :luke:

[WhiteRavenKS]

i have run a rear avid. on many kinds of bikes. always felt fine to me compared to a hydro.

the reasons why: piston size, pad size, pad compound. that's pretty much why. the brake would work like shit on anything but a trials bike. it fades when it gets really hot- i think from the pad compound. makes the brake useless for anything but trials riding where we dont ever get up too much heat.

adpators- shimano made adaptors to run their brake on manitou forks. it was a very slim adaptor that went out to a 170mm rotor. hope makes all kinds of crazy ass adaptors that arent really listed anywhere but they do exist. they will also make you one and cut you a custom sized rotor (the rotors go for like 35 USD). i dont know your frame clearence or anything.

my problems with my hope have seemed to be exclusive to me, like i got the one poop one that slid by quality control. so far it has leaked twice (i was able to fix both times). it came out of the box with a shit bleed. it has about a mile of extra line that i havent bothered to cut because i dont have any fittings. the lever has been spongy since day one. it was good for about 20 minutes after a bleed once but never got better than that. i cranked the reach way out just to get it to the point where it's tollerable. i had to face my fork tabs, not the brake's fault but avids dont deal with that shit. it has no adjustability, reach only. coming off an avid mech and juicy where everything is adjustable to make your brake however you want- this has been a pain in my ass. also the brake pumps up, but only on hot days. like i said, no one else ive heard of is having any of these issues.

[dingus]

I think the gustav m is a good brake. I know someone who does atleast.

[BrettM]

I'm almost ready to jump ship over to Magura now. I used them in the past and something aboots the pad compound was amazing. If they never leaked 160 mm was enough. In the wet they dominated.

Every way I wanna go has a catch tho. Magura's is I would need a rear lever, with a front brake lever, with rear housing. I think I got a hook up tho...

Magura Marta on the rear maybe??? My old one was great until it died and then the customer service was fucking amazing.

[Elan]

from what ive got, youre looking for a rear brake. if i were you, id try the try-all/hope brake.

[Donkay]

I've got a buddy here that rides an Echo Urban for too long and hasn't fully snapped yet...and runs Disc only due to 26" front and 24" rear...

he's used M4's most of his Disc days, and ran Avid mech for one week and sold them to me...and now has bought the new Hope Trials Specific one...(that only comes in 6" rotors) He says it's soo much better than the M4's but barely any modulation...he said that the package even mentioned "Warning, for TRIALS use only" anyway...here's a picture of him i took a fair while ago...couldn't find the real picture..so i had to print screen off my desktop:hs:

http://www.observedtrials.net/otn2/M4.JPG
Well, you said you wanted a picture Brett, here's one:Wavey:

[BrettM]

Anyone have any idea at all if you can get that hope one with a post mount setup? If I got that it works perfectly. 160 mm postmount is what I use to run a 203 mm rear disk. Its all custom. Basically every other brake will work but maybe this one???

[Elan]

i think hope will make you whatever you want, they are good at that.

www.hope-tech.com (http://www.hope-tech.com) email them and find out.

[DangerousDave]

Dani Comas is a fucking monster and runs Hope trials brakes, all the monty team does now.

And I never thought Monty would ever stop using Maguras

[BrettM]

K I've done some research and so far the brake comes as only a 160 mm combo with only is mounts. However I think I found an adaptor from Hayes that I can run to make it work. The catch is the clearance. I am gonna have to do some serious emailing and measuring to guess or just get one with a possibility of having to send it back.

I've also seen a few comments that it is spongy. Not a great sign if I want to run it rear...

I don't really know what to think. More money than I really wanna spend any time soon. Maybe I'll just get used to the cable again and never touch someone else's hydro bike again.

[Elan]

i dont know whos hope is spongy..meh.

if you had a hope like vinces on the back, you would have the god brakes. i think they come with jesus approval and they say "god" on them.

[smudge]

I said it was spongey. I said it because comparitively, it IS spongey...which you can expect when your slave pistons are that much bigger. But I also said that it feels rad and you won't notice the sponge because it's so damn powerful.

Brett, if you use a post style adaptor, you may have to bump up to a larger rotor size. Talk to Gwen or Bill or William at Hope USA and they'll set you straight.

Hydraulics get their power from the master/slave ratio. All hope brakes EXCEPT the Mono Trials, have the exact same ratio. The big difference between the different models really comes down to heat dissipation, which you most likely don't need. The standard mini's will definitely boil if you drag them down a multi mile descent, where the M4's and the M6's can take quite a bit extra heat because they use larger rotors and have more pad contact area.

Some poor sucker one day is going to try to run the Trials brakes as XC brakes. With the Al pistons and a moderate downhill...B..O..I..L.

[AndyT]

I've felt 4 or 5 different hope trials brakes. 3 of them were better than anything you could of ever imaged. The fourth wasn't.

[digby]

My hope was pretty amazing the 1st day or so I got it, then I think I borked the pads trying to clean and bed them in more. Does anyone know if the mono-trials takes the same kind of pad as the mini or if it has some kind of custom trials shit. Also what a comparable ebc alternative would be.

From what I felt on the first day or so of my hope brake, I would say incredible modulation with really good lock up. Pretty much everything I could ask for in a brake. Since I borked the pads up, not so much, its still pretty good, but that 1st day really ruined it for me as I got a feel for just how good it could be.

[theringer66]

well not to bag on hopes or any thing but i would say you should try avid juicy 7s i have one on the front of my woodman. the 203 roter gives tons of power and the pad contact point ajuster works really well. most of all it would bolt right up to your curent set up. if i were to swich to a disk in the rear i would definatly use this brake as my first choice. there were romors about them leaking when they were first released. my first one leaked but i sent it back to them and in three days i had a new one it was sweet definatly props to sram. they also made alot of changes to the new versions of the brake to stop this problem.

to pimp out these brakes even more try goodridge lines and danger boy leavers. the goodridge lines are expensive but increase modulation, power, and the stregnth of the line.

http://www.dangerboyusa.com/photos/item-juicy-tn.jpg (javascript: popup('item-juicy-lg.jpg'))
these are also nice because they have a nice scoop which feels nice on your fingers.

even with out these up grades these brakes are the best in my opinion.

B-Rad

[lucky13]

What about running a Magura Gustav? Has anyone tried one on their trials bike?

As for the whole cable vs. hydro debate, I agree with WhiteRaven.

Anyway, you could always run V's or Maggies :luke:
Yea, you'd have to see Brett's bike to understand,.. post mount 160mm ONLY. The mounts are set up to run a 208ish rotor with NO addaptor.

I second Brad's prop on '05-'06 Avid Juicys. The damn things bout threw me off his bike,.. super grabby and solid feeling.

Otherwise if Magura makes a post mount Gustav,.. then that would be the money. I rode some of those on a DH rig, and I even tried pedal kicking 'cause the brakes felt right for it. Grabby and solid.

I'm betting on your R&D Brett, so don't screw it up! lol

joel

[thetart20]

Does anyone know if the mono-trials takes the same kind of pad as the mini or if it has some kind of custom trials shit. The Hope Trial brake takes Hope Trial Brake pads... I'm not sure there are any aftermarket ones yet.

As for the Hope brake.... excellent quality (don't hear of many leaking at all, unlike Maguras), good power, but I would say not *quite* as much lock as a comparatively sized Avid Cable Disc. At least as much bite though.

If you're on a post mount Brett, you can get an adaptor no problem. Hope will also make you a custom rotor of custom diameter should you wish :) (shout me if you'd want a hand with that)

Lever feel is a little soft compared to other Hope brakes. As has been said, its got a different leverage ratio (from the pistons) to all their other brakes. The slave piston is now 25mm (the other brakes are 20mm or equivalent), giving just over 50% more leverage.

Theres a bit more info (and some pics) here. (http://tartybikes.co.uk/products.php?product=disk_brakes)

Cheers,
Adam

[BrettM]

I've ran the Juicy's before. 3 rides on the rear and not even a month on the front. I can't go back to that.

I've actually managed to learn a lot about disk brakes in the last 12 hours, so now I think something like a Marta or Louise would be better than a Gustav.

It's down to doing a little price and compatibility checking now I guess. Magura or Hope trial.

Tart you haven't heard anything aboots a post mount version have you?

[lucky13]

I know you've run the early version of juicys, I still remember waiting in anticipation for you to 'giver' when you got most likely one of the first sets in Canada.

They changed them.

Maybe Jerry or someone else that attended the SRAM University clinic could articulate, but I wouldn't be surprised if you held your ol' leaky set up to the new ones and could visibly see a difference in the caliper construction and lever construction.

But that's cool, I know what you mean. I've been spooked out of using product after a bad experiance a couple different times.

As for Hope: I'm pretty sure they make one-off's for custom freaks like you (lol), just give them a call and see if you could get a post mount trials pistoned caliper or two...

I'm stoked that you're pushing the r&d envelope again, too bad it's at your expense eh?

[thetart20]

Tart you haven't heard anything about a post mount version have you? I've never seen a recent Hope caliper with a post mount, unfortunately.

Its also very rare to have a post mount on a trials fork too I guess (unless you were running Manitou sus forks... and even less likely on a frame!), so I would think it unlikely they would consider designing (and CNC coding) a post mount caliper.

On another note, i've head good things from Louise/Shimano mix brakes. Theres an article on VTCZ here: http://www.vtcz.ch/pages/bike_technik/louise_xt_mix.php

My mate had a Deore lever with Louise caliper and 160mm rotor on the front of his bike once - that was a really good brake!

[MikeTheBike]

I've been running a Louise FR 180mm on the rear of a Woodman T-Comp since December 2004. Pad breakin time was about 15 minutes and I've had superb lockup with no leakage throughout. Admittedly, I did face the mounts and bake the pads but then I've done that one every bike and brake I've had.

The best thing about experimenting with Magura is the lower cost compared to Hope and Avid (Juicy, that is).

[Ed Gildea]

god dave, your so dangerous!

[Ali C]

I have tried the 6 ti on the front of a trials bike, it was mint! much better than my 185 mono trials was, I would have no concirn of putting it on the back.

I have also used a mono trials on the back, to put it basicly it was shit, had no hold at all, I binned it as soon as I could.

If I was to use a rear disk again, it would eithr be the mono 4 pot or the 6 ti, either should have the power.

on a nother note, arnt the extra pistons to help reduce heat build up when dhing? same reason why the mono 6 ti has the lovely rotor.

[Elan]

the main reason for extra pistonsris htat they are different sizes, so you can get teh best podulation possible. heat dissipation has little to do wit hthe 6 pistons, teh rotor obvioulsy helps heat, liek you said.

[digby]

so whats the best way to get ahold of some "hope trials" pads? Graham?

[madbiker66]

Hope America i would i have thought?

[digby]

the last time I called hope america they were like "we make a trials brake?"

[Elan]

yeah. http://www.rutlandcycling.com/ProductDetails/mcs/productID/483/groupID/8/categoryID/55/v/bfe95412-db7a-4a58-9972-918834e84b6f

[Elan]

if yo uemai lgraham about it, i could probably get some in

[thetart20]

the last time I called hope america they were like "we make a trials brake?" Haha, nice. Give me shout if you get stuck, we've got a few sets kicking about :)

[trialsrider50]

mechanical hayes are the best brake for trials. with really hard pads. lol. umm i used to have a shimano xt set that was 4 piston and they kicked ass. some people say they have no modulation but once you get to them they seem to work fine. i'm kinda late coming into this one but that's what i had. good luck.

[BrettM]

On another note, i've head good things from Louise/Shimano mix brakes. Theres an article on VTCZ here: http://www.vtcz.ch/pages/bike_technik/louise_xt_mix.php

My mate had a Deore lever with Louise caliper and 160mm rotor on the front of his bike once - that was a really good brake!
I loved my Louise and Marta until they leaked. The levers never really bothered me at all so thats not really an issue for me.

A lot of people are saying talk to hope. Through what site? hopetech.com? Will I actually get a response?

I guess I can add Avid back onto my email list. If something drastic changed with them I would love to try them again. I'm not even that picky I don't think. 3 months of no leaks. 2 week turn around time to get me my brake back. Magura did that and did it better.

[jmkimmel]

I loved my Louise and Marta until they leaked. The levers never really bothered me at all so thats not really an issue for me.

A lot of people are saying talk to hope. Through what site? hopetech.com? Will I actually get a response?

I guess I can add Avid back onto my email list. If something drastic changed with them I would love to try them again. I'm not even that picky I don't think. 3 months of no leaks. 2 week turn around time to get me my brake back. Magura did that and did it better.
Call Hope - don't email. You can get the number either from a manual (what I did) or probably on the web too. They're great about answering the phone - usually it's a woman with a real thick british accent. Makes ya want to bone her.

PS
Isn't it ironic that you're wanting to switch from avid within months of having that custom 8" post-mount bike built up? Dontcha think?

[thetart20]

I loved my Louise and Marta until they leaked. The levers never really bothered me at all so thats not really an issue for me.

A lot of people are saying talk to hope. Through what site? hopetech.com? Will I actually get a response? I see, cool. I think the idea behind using the 2001 Louise caliper is that its (supposedly) more robust leaking-wise.

Its unlikely you'll get a response to an email, but its worth a go. A call would cost you a lot I imagine. If you want us to do it on your behalf, fire me a PM with the questions you wanna ask, and we'll give Alan (owner of Hope) a shout early next week.

[AndyT]

the older louise had an actual adjustment on it....i've run louise and a very special one, gustav/marta sl/steel braided combo that cris santos ran. Probably the best brake ever, I couldn't run it because it was non adjustable (couldn't get the lever to come closer to the bar).

[BrettM]

Isn't it ironic that you're wanting to switch from avid within months of having that custom 8" post-mount bike built up? Dontcha think?

No. I designed the mount so that I can use any post mount brake on the market on it. I chose Avid originally. What is ironic is everyone using a regular mount fork, with a post mount brake like an Avid. You guys choose one style mount fork and then mount the other style with an adapter. I'm using the same style on both. I'm the only one being un-ironic. Well maybe not. But its definately not ironic.

[BrettM]

I see, cool. I think the idea behind using the 2001 Louise caliper is that its (supposedly) more robust leaking-wise.

It's what I used and like Andy said it was for the adjustment mostly.

[digby]

usually it's a woman with a real thick british accent. Makes ya want to bone her.


I will be making this call 1st thing monday.




You know what would cut out all the irony, if you just had peyto rip off your post mounts and re-weld and re-paint some IS mounts on there. That would probably be easier/cheaper than having hope custom cnc you a post mount mini.

[BrettM]

You know what would cut out all the irony, if you just had peyto rip off your post mounts and re-weld and re-paint some IS mounts on there. That would probably be easier/cheaper than having hope custom cnc you a post mount mini.
And who said I wanted a hope? It's third on my list of three. If I do use it an adapter is all of 20 bux. Kind of dumb to use an adapter on a mount that was designed for none...but everyone else does it on the front fork now a days.

[WhiteRavenKS]

No. I designed the mount so that I can use any post mount brake on the market on it. I chose Avid originally. What is ironic is everyone using a regular mount fork, with a post mount brake like an Avid. You guys choose one style mount fork and then mount the other style with an adapter. I'm using the same style on both. I'm the only one being un-ironic. Well maybe not. But its definately not ironic. it's like rain on your wedding day?

the 01 louise was single piston too if i remember right. all that hydro force went into one piston and pushed the rotor over into a static one. kinda like an avid only with the convenience of oil.

edit- also, there isnt shit wrong with using an adaptor. seems like everyone worries about it being weaker or whatever but i have not once seen brake mount bolts fail. and ive seen some crazy ass multiple piggy backed adaptors going on with some people's bikes.

[BrettM]

Yes it was a single piston.

To clarify I wasn't saying there is anything wrong with using the adapter. I ditched it for a clean look, and apparently the mounting system is stronger, although you'd probably never break the old one when done right. I only pointed it out to prove a point that my setup is more normal than most if you really wanna think aboots it, but at the same time it doesn't matter.

Kinda like a free ride when you are already there.

[Giant1118]

its the good advice

[WhiteRavenKS]

it's really more like a death row pardon two minutes too late.

i figured you knew your shit on adaptors brett, i just dont think many other people do.

[smudge]

...They're great about answering the phone - usually it's a woman with a real thick british accent. Makes ya want to bone her.

That's Gwen. She's extremely nice, but (and I don't want to ruin the fantasy) if you met her, believe me, you wouldn't want to bone her.

If you can, get Bill on the phone. He's been the best to work with. And if you work at a shop, make sure to ask about the EP price. It'll save you a few beans.

[BrettM]

Ok I think I'm officially ending my hydro disk quest for a bit. I got a lot of question to ask a lot of people. It's not over yet, but postponed. I'm goin down a different road instead for now.

I'm thinking after talking with Dave Herr that I'm betting most hydro calipers are gonna be alike. Piston size should be very little to the equation. The real answer for a trials hydro caliper should be the brake pad like on a trials rim brake.

The Hope sounds promising and with the Monty team on board and a Try All version out I'm betting this gets addresses as well as a couple other small issues I've been hearing. Unfortunately its the first year of its release and generally that is the worst year for a product. Everything is new and relatively untested. Hopefully in time it gets worked on and maybe even a post mount for me...