why not buy custom frames?

[hello?]

why dont people like to buy more custom frames from a custom dealer?? couldnt someone just go t a custom frame maker and say i want a frame to look and be exactly like a koxx xtp or something of that sort and have it for cheaper? it would probably be even cheaper as well because the maker wouldnt have to design the frame. why dont more people do this or anyone? is it illegal to do this or is it just really difficult to make a exact replica of a koxx frame or coust frame or something of that sort?

[BrettM]

Image is everything when money is no object. The hell with common sense, its only meant for you and I.

[bwagner]

what makes you think a complete custom one off from a builder would be cheaper than a stock production bike? How many have you priced lately. Most small bilder would have to charge more for the same frame because the frame would not be built by a ten year old sweatshop worker. The object of custom built is that you can get something original, not a replica of someone elses design. Also, the builder might not have to come up with the design, but he/she does have to figure out exactly how and where to cut/mitre tubes, which tubing diameters would be most appropriate, etc....... It's not to say that the custom built bike isn't worth the money, it's completely worth it, but it's a far pricier and more time consuming thing than just letting someone copy a bike for you. Besides, most builders have a modicum of self decency, and wouldn't copy a bike in the first place.

[hello?]

Besides, most builders have a modicum of self decency, and wouldn't copy a bike in the first place.
yes maybe i see your point and i also see that people ride name bikes like koxx and such maybe for some of the reason taht they can just go out and tell smeone that they ride a koxx or something. also, im not to sure how much custom frames are if someone could fill me in that would be great but i doubt there the same price as a $1400 xtp frame, but i dont know exactly. even still you could just have your own perfect design and not even copy another bike and it still might be cheaper.

[Boo_Berry]

well... take for instance desalvo, he makes very very good frames, custom built geometry to what you want, and the frame is amazing of the rear wheel, the only drawback is that it takes eons for the frame to be sent and made and so forth.
seven also makes a pimp titanium trials frame but its about 4gs ....
and i'm sure you could make an identical frame to a koxx or coust, just dont sell it... personally i want to ride as much as i can and i dont want to spend excesses of 4 grand or wait half the summer to get my frame, let alont complete an assembly

[BrettM]

what makes you think a complete custom one off from a builder would be cheaper than a stock production bike? How many have you priced lately. Most small bilder would have to charge more for the same frame because the frame would not be built by a ten year old sweatshop worker. The object of custom built is that you can get something original, not a replica of someone elses design. Also, the builder might not have to come up with the design, but he/she does have to figure out exactly how and where to cut/mitre tubes, which tubing diameters would be most appropriate, etc....... It's not to say that the custom built bike isn't worth the money, it's completely worth it, but it's a far pricier and more time consuming thing than just letting someone copy a bike for you. Besides, most builders have a modicum of self decency, and wouldn't copy a bike in the first place.

My custom bike costs less than a Koxx Levelboss. Don't even bring bikes like an xtp or Coust into it.

Self decency??? Are you kidding me??? Who hasn't copied who. Its all been done before and then some. Every cheap ass thing you might own is a direct rip off of something that appears to be the exact same, but costs way more. From the glass you drink out of to the chair you are sitting on right now. Something looks exactly the same yet costs more. Its just the way it is.

[bwagner]

yes maybe i see your point and i also see that people ride name bikes like koxx and such maybe for some of the reason taht they can just go out and tell smeone that they ride a koxx or something. also, im not to sure how much custom frames are if someone could fill me in that would be great but i doubt there the same price as a $1400 xtp frame, but i dont know exactly. even still you could just have your own perfect design and not even copy another bike and it still might be cheaper.I agree, I hope you don't think I was bashing you in my first post. Most custom builders use expensive tubesets, and everything is hand done, meaning that the costs are somewhat higher than the larger companies. An example of this are "Curtis" frames, they're around 1000.00 U.S. dollars just for the frame. Not everyone can afford an XTP, but it is however a competetion frame designed to be light weight, and not for everyday riding, so maybe those who choose to purchase the frame are doing so for the weight factor too, and because they might feel like it gives them an edge in comps or something. The only other thing with complete custom is what if you only think you have a better design(if it's not a copy) ,and you end up hating your new frame? Lots of cash down the drain, and most likely not too easy to sell to someone who had no part in designing it. Good luck whichever route you choose to travel buddy

[hello?]

ive already got a bt raven frame from just a couple months ago. i dont want a new frame any time soon i was just wondering if you could do this and why people dont.

[icecreamsammy]

I think most people dont know what it is that they want in a custom frame (ie.dimensions) and therefore just find it easier to buy a normal production fame. Just what i think.

[BrettM]

I think most people dont know what it is that they want in a custom frame (ie.dimensions) and therefore just find it easier to buy a normal production fame. Just what i think.
This is exactly my point. IMAGE IMAGE IMAGE. How can you not know what you want for custom, but you can pick a pre made bike no problem? There is absolutely no difference at all. Custom is chainstay length, bb height, wheelbase and head tube angle. That is seriously all there is. What trials rider doesn't know those 4 things?

Curtis frames are expensive because they are quality hand built frames. Xtp frames are expensive cause someone decided they should be. There is absolutely no comparison. Anything over 100 bux for you to buy the Koxx frame and Koxx is making money. Curtis' break even point is much much higher and they make less money per frame.

I can see why someone has say an xtp or Coust or whatever right now. But for your next frame there really is no excuse it isn't custom. Who doesn't know what sorta wheelbase and chainstays you like? Gimme a break. Head tube angle and bb height is another tricky one...please. It really is hard to see what you like until Koxx releases it I guess.

[Giant1118]

Xtp frames are expensive cause someone decided they should be.
well said

[smudge]

Most of the time I agree with you Brett, the rest of the time I can usually see your logic, but this time I think your views are a bit skewed. You’ve made mostly true statements (however opinionated and over-simplified) but have overlooked some important details, and I’m almost certain that you’re doing it purposely to prove a point.



This is exactly my point. IMAGE IMAGE IMAGE. How can you not know what you want for custom, but you can pick a pre made bike no problem? There is absolutely no difference at all. Custom is chainstay length, bb height, wheelbase and head tube angle. That is seriously all there is. What trials rider doesn't know those 4 things?

I don’t think it can be denied that image is an important deciding factor when purchasing ANYTHING. But you have to concede that not everyone knows what they want in a custom bike…people can’t even decide what the fuck to put on their Subway sub, let alone make informed decisions about BB height, stay length and so on. Toss in a choice between frame materials, tube diameters, brake mounting options oh, oh, OMG brain freeze. The truth is that most people don’t fully understand the concept, they don’t have the same level of experience. Given that most people at least have an idea of what to expect out of a stock frame in terms of performance and warrantee, it’s no wonder that most people go stock even though it might not be the best choice for their personal riding style.

Curtis frames are expensive because they are quality hand built frames. Xtp frames are expensive cause someone decided they should be. There is absolutely no comparison. Anything over 100 bux for you to buy the Koxx frame and Koxx is making money. Curtis' break even point is much much higher and they make less money per frame.

Curtis frames may be quality, hand-built frames, but the same can’t be said for all custom builders. The truth here is that most custom builders don’t have the slightest clue how trials frames differ from standard frames, and can (and will) make serious mistakes during the production process that could (and will) make it difficult for the customer to get exactly what they want. Take my experience with Doug Curtiss of Curtlo. He’s been in the custom frame business for well over a decade, yet despite my exacting instructions, still managed to make a mess out of a frame I designed to be built by him. He’s had numerous positive reviews from single speedsters, MTBr’s and roadies, but when it came to my frame, he was a major fuck up.



The other point here is the cost involved in tooling. The XTP is a bit special in that it has a non-standard head tube configuration. Whether it’s cast or forged is irrelevant here isn’t it because in either case, it’s expensive to make the molds and perform the final machining. Koxx might pay less than $100 for raw materials, but you can be they had a sizeable initial investment in the tooling required to make them. It’s the same deal with the other CNC’d parts. Al has risen tremendously in cost on the world market in the past two years. CNC generates a lot of waste even if you can keep production times low.



Now that the raw materials are costed, the frames need to be shipped (prices are rising due to fuel costs) to a distributor, who may re-package them and ship them again (and again, fuel and handling) to another, regional distributor who not only needs to make their profit margin, they incur shipping and handling costs as well. Then it’s off to a retailer, who again incurs those costs. AND, I think we’re all pretty well aware of the strength of the dollar.



The point is that despite how high we think the prices are, doesn’t it stand to reason that it’s all well within the normal costs associated with the flow of the world economy?

I can see why someone has say an xtp or Coust or whatever right now. But for your next frame there really is no excuse it isn't custom. Who doesn't know what sorta wheelbase and chainstays you like? Gimme a break. Head tube angle and bb height is another tricky one...please. It really is hard to see what you like until Koxx releases it I guess.

I don’t have the energy left to respond to this one now, but I’ll say that you’re being extreme in your thinking, which is fine…for you.



Sean

[theringer66]

my custom desalvo mod that i designed only cost me 700 bucks. i looked at all of the mod frames out there and took the aspects i liked and the gemotry that i liked and he made it. the frame weight is olny 4 pounds 6 ounces. your own design will be cheeper and easyer to construct than copying a koxx.

Brad

[digby]

do these custom builders peyto/desolvo, do custom forks to match? It'd be nice to have a fournales type fork carbon/steel legs or a nice steel version of the koxx fork.


Also do peyto/desolvo do aluminum or are they both steel only? A shorter version of the vinco would be nice and custom would probably be the only way to get a frame with the right geometry length.

[AndyT]

who gives a shit, get a 200 dollar frame from taiwan and learn how to fucking ride it instead of spooging about how awes000mez your welds are.

[bmorekirby]

Most of the time I agree with you Brett, the rest of the time I can usually see your logic, but this time I think your views are a bit skewed. You’ve made mostly true statements (however opinionated and over-simplified) but have overlooked some important details, and I’m almost certain that you’re doing it purposely to prove a point.





I don’t think it can be denied that image is an important deciding factor when purchasing ANYTHING. But you have to concede that not everyone knows what they want in a custom bike…people can’t even decide what the fuck to put on their Subway sub, let alone make informed decisions about BB height, stay length and so on. Toss in a choice between frame materials, tube diameters, brake mounting options oh, oh, OMG brain freeze. The truth is that most people don’t fully understand the concept, they don’t have the same level of experience. Given that most people at least have an idea of what to expect out of a stock frame in terms of performance and warrantee, it’s no wonder that most people go stock even though it might not be the best choice for their personal riding style.



Curtis frames may be quality, hand-built frames, but the same can’t be said for all custom builders. The truth here is that most custom builders don’t have the slightest clue how trials frames differ from standard frames, and can (and will) make serious mistakes during the production process that could (and will) make it difficult for the customer to get exactly what they want. Take my experience with Doug Curtiss of Curtlo. He’s been in the custom frame business for well over a decade, yet despite my exacting instructions, still managed to make a mess out of a frame I designed to be built by him. He’s had numerous positive reviews from single speedsters, MTBr’s and roadies, but when it came to my frame, he was a major fuck up.



The other point here is the cost involved in tooling. The XTP is a bit special in that it has a non-standard head tube configuration. Whether it’s cast or forged is irrelevant here isn’t it because in either case, it’s expensive to make the molds and perform the final machining. Koxx might pay less than $100 for raw materials, but you can be they had a sizeable initial investment in the tooling required to make them. It’s the same deal with the other CNC’d parts. Al has risen tremendously in cost on the world market in the past two years. CNC generates a lot of waste even if you can keep production times low.



Now that the raw materials are costed, the frames need to be shipped (prices are rising due to fuel costs) to a distributor, who may re-package them and ship them again (and again, fuel and handling) to another, regional distributor who not only needs to make their profit margin, they incur shipping and handling costs as well. Then it’s off to a retailer, who again incurs those costs. AND, I think we’re all pretty well aware of the strength of the dollar.



The point is that despite how high we think the prices are, doesn’t it stand to reason that it’s all well within the normal costs associated with the flow of the world economy?



I don’t have the energy left to respond to this one now, but I’ll say that you’re being extreme in your thinking, which is fine…for you.



Sean

calling all cars, calling all cars. elitist post whore on the loose!

[Boo_Berry]

:rofl::werd:

[smudge]

calling all cars, calling all cars. elitist post whore on the loose!
Really?! Elitist? How am I elitist by defending reasons behind the price of "big companies" product? Again, how am I elitist by pointing out that not everyone needs a custom frame and furthermore, that most people don't even know what the hell they want? And post whore? Look at when I joined and how many posts I have compared to when you joined and your post count.

Get your facts straight Kirby. I'll happily discuss my view with you over a beer...in case you weren't aware, I'm from Baltimore.

[Bryan]

Custom frames are more expensive and take longer to get. You can pay 550 for an echo/zoo frame with geometry pretty close to what you want, have it in 3 days and be riding, or you could buy custom and pay $800+ for something that will take months to complete.

There is also a lack of assurance. If you don't like a frame you buy stock, you can sell it to a friend or over OTN and lose $50-100 in the process. If you don't like your custom frame, it will be harder to sell, and the resale value will be a much smaller fraction of what you paid for it.

[BrettM]

do these custom builders peyto/desolvo, do custom forks to match? It'd be nice to have a fournales type fork carbon/steel legs or a nice steel version of the koxx fork.


Also do peyto/desolvo do aluminum or are they both steel only? A shorter version of the vinco would be nice and custom would probably be the only way to get a frame with the right geometry length.
Soon on the custom forks from Peyto. I've been bugging Paul for over a year and he is working on it right now. The drawback was finding and ordering the special one piece steer tubes.

I'm not sure aboots Desalvo but Peyto doesn't do Aluminum. Its a kind of sketchy material and kinda hard to work with. If you want aluminum buy a production frame.

[BrettM]

Most of the time I agree with you Brett, the rest of the time I can usually see your logic, but this time I think your views are a bit skewed. You’ve made mostly true statements (however opinionated and over-simplified) but have overlooked some important details, and I’m almost certain that you’re doing it purposely to prove a point.





I don’t think it can be denied that image is an important deciding factor when purchasing ANYTHING. But you have to concede that not everyone knows what they want in a custom bike…people can’t even decide what the fuck to put on their Subway sub, let alone make informed decisions about BB height, stay length and so on. Toss in a choice between frame materials, tube diameters, brake mounting options oh, oh, OMG brain freeze. The truth is that most people don’t fully understand the concept, they don’t have the same level of experience. Given that most people at least have an idea of what to expect out of a stock frame in terms of performance and warrantee, it’s no wonder that most people go stock even though it might not be the best choice for their personal riding style.


Tell me this then. Why is it someone will choose say an Echo Pure over say a Koxx Levelboss? I think people choose bikes based on wheelbase alone honestly. Head tube angles are relatively all the same. Very few people will get very pissed over that. It will be 71 to 72 degrees. Everything has 15 inch stays. 2 of the 4 parts of the equation are done. Bottom brackets were close to the same until the Vinco came around. Zero drop to lets say an inch above. Wheelbase. Everyone has an opinion of what they want, everyone. To me it is insanely easy to design a frame. If you are in the level of owning and deserving an xtp or coust you know exactly what you want down to a T. That was my original thinking. These people can design a frame no problem, but don't. My basic theory is if you can pick between an echo, zoo, coust, koxx, px, whatever why can you not figure out why you picked that and make it custom.



Curtis frames may be quality, hand-built frames, but the same can’t be said for all custom builders. The truth here is that most custom builders don’t have the slightest clue how trials frames differ from standard frames, and can (and will) make serious mistakes during the production process that could (and will) make it difficult for the customer to get exactly what they want. Take my experience with Doug Curtiss of Curtlo. He’s been in the custom frame business for well over a decade, yet despite my exacting instructions, still managed to make a mess out of a frame I designed to be built by him. He’s had numerous positive reviews from single speedsters, MTBr’s and roadies, but when it came to my frame, he was a major fuck up.

To me that is almost beside the point. Brisa's first run of trials frames. The Coust frame depending who you talk to. All have major weaknesses depending what you want to believe or want to get out of a frame. Shit happens to Trials frames companies as well as custom guys. Maybe next time talk to Desalvo or Peyto as they have trials experience?

The other point here is the cost involved in tooling. The XTP is a bit special in that it has a non-standard head tube configuration. Whether it’s cast or forged is irrelevant here isn’t it because in either case, it’s expensive to make the molds and perform the final machining. Koxx might pay less than $100 for raw materials, but you can be they had a sizeable initial investment in the tooling required to make them. It’s the same deal with the other CNC’d parts. Al has risen tremendously in cost on the world market in the past two years. CNC generates a lot of waste even if you can keep production times low.

I will give some respect to the xtp, but none at all to the Coust. I'm not sure where the head tube came from, but I'm quite sure the other cnc work was pulled from a box as easy as the dropouts are. I would even offer up a bet that the head tube isn't made by Koxx at all or even originally for them.


Now that the raw materials are costed, the frames need to be shipped (prices are rising due to fuel costs) to a distributor, who may re-package them and ship them again (and again, fuel and handling) to another, regional distributor who not only needs to make their profit margin, they incur shipping and handling costs as well. Then it’s off to a retailer, who again incurs those costs. AND, I think we’re all pretty well aware of the strength of the dollar.

Again, a custom guy has this same deal. I bet the price of any frame out there except the xtp from a major company is lower after all the work and shipping and everything else than say my custom frame was. These guys make more per frame than Curtis or a custom maker.



The point is that despite how high we think the prices are, doesn’t it stand to reason that it’s all well within the normal costs associated with the flow of the world economy?

No. There is zero difference between a 700 dollar cnd Zoo and a 1500 dollar cnd Coust. Except maybe that the Zoo is built stronger.


I don’t have the energy left to respond to this one now, but I’ll say that you’re being extreme in your thinking, which is fine…for you.



Sean
I always use pretty firm opinions and words when responding, not necessarily a bad thing. Thanks for putting up a rational argument without just calling me an ass and leaving it at that. I didn't see anything elitist, unless I was being that way too.

[BrettM]

Ok Sean I messed up my post and can't edit it above. I tried to respond within your writing. So you gotta look in your original response for my responses. Sorry I'm terrible with a computer.

[BrettM]

Custom frames are more expensive and take longer to get. You can pay 550 for an echo/zoo frame with geometry pretty close to what you want, have it in 3 days and be riding, or you could buy custom and pay $800+ for something that will take months to complete.

There is also a lack of assurance. If you don't like a frame you buy stock, you can sell it to a friend or over OTN and lose $50-100 in the process. If you don't like your custom frame, it will be harder to sell, and the resale value will be a much smaller fraction of what you paid for it.
Custom frames are more expensive than SOME production frames. My frame is cheaper than a xtp, levelboss and Coust.

Why can't you sell a custom frame. Are you telling me if you had a frame that was basically the same as say a Level boss it would be harder to sell than a level boss? I wouldn't think so. I'd like to see you try out your new production frame, ride it long enough to not like it, and then sell for only 50 - 100 loss. Good luck.

My thinking is based on higher end frames only. If you have one I generally think you know exactly what you want out of a frame. You know exactly what angles and geometry. So you are riding along one day and go man I wish my bb was higher and my wheelbase was longer. Order custom and keep riding that production frame. I see so many people with v brake adaptors on magura mounts. There is a great reason for custom.

[Faction Bike]

who gives a shit, get a 200 dollar frame from taiwan and learn how to fucking ride it instead of spooging about how awes000mez your welds are.

I think I like this guy :naughty:

[AndyT]

you missed out on toys thai tonight...hwat are you doingzzz

[afrobot]

who gives a shit, get a 200 dollar frame from taiwan and learn how to fucking ride it instead of spooging about how awes000mez your welds are.
So yeah my welds are worth spooging on. Pics soon:drool:

Quote, brett m {This is exactly my point. IMAGE IMAGE IMAGE. How can you not know what you want for custom, but you can pick a pre made bike no problem? There is absolutely no difference at all. Custom is chainstay length, bb height, wheelbase and head tube angle. That is seriously all there is. What trials rider doesn't know those 4 things}



I've been riding two 1/2 years and I barely know what I want. Most people buy production frames beacause they are proven , readily available, and warrantable.

The only reasons to buy a custom are 1. You want something that isn't made ,or isn't readily available. 2. you have waaay too much money 3. You want to impress you friend (singular). 3. #1 &3 apply and you know one of the best frame builders in the country ,he's cutting you a sick deal ,and your frame is done in one week.

Thats meeeeee.:rofl:

Fully fillet brazed. True Temper platinum OX Dtube, Dedacai chainstays,and a proprietary top tube none y'all niggas can get.BWAAAAAA

Pics by monday. Built whenever I can afford cranks:wtc:

[BrettM]

I've been riding two 1/2 years and I barely know what I want. Most people buy production frames beacause they are proven , readily available, and warrantable.

The only reasons to buy a custom are 1. You want something that isn't made ,or isn't readily available. 2. you have waaay too much money 3. You want to impress you friend (singular). 3. #1 &3 apply and you know one of the best frame builders in the country ,he's cutting you a sick deal ,and your frame is done in one week.

Thats meeeeee.:rofl:

Fully fillet brazed. True Temper platinum OX Dtube, Dedacai chainstays,and a proprietary top tube none y'all niggas can get.BWAAAAAA

Pics by monday. Built whenever I can afford cranks:wtc:
I still think if you can decide between 5 or so different readily available frame makers than you can go custom just as easy. This was originally implied to those that ride a frame that is more than a custom one. These people I believe should have absolutely no problem telling you exactly what they want.

I went custom first because I want the rear disk. Second because it is CHEAPER than some of the stuff I was looking at. If I didn't ride custom I would without a doubt ride a xtp. Its not THE bike for me, but close enough.

Can't wait to see the new ride. Mine arrives around then as well.

For the dude who asked aboots custom forks I just got an email. Very soon. 250 cnd. Mine will take a little longer than production versions (my stuff always does) as he needs to figure out the post mount jazz for it.



For future posters if you wanna call me out I am referring to a Levelboss barely, but mostly a xtp and Coust. If you are riding the second two I really wanna know why. I'm assuming custom is basically an inconvienence.

[MegamoMidwest]

This basically all comes down to the fact that production sweat shop frames are tried and true, why do you think koxx advertises the fact that the levelboss won the world championships 7 times? because it lets the buyer know that the frame works, and works well. I will agree that you CAN definately get better results from a custom frame, but why risk it? you are paying (often times) more money and (often times) waiting longer for something that you arent certain works all that great, when you could just order something online and have it get to your house in about a week, and you know it will work well.

[bmorekirby]

Get your facts straight Kirby. I'll happily discuss my view with you over a beer...in case you weren't aware, I'm from Baltimore.

whats up with that "i'm from baltimore" crap? are you threatening me grass hopper? ha ha. :dunno: but yeah, that post was a product of "tui" Typing Under the Influence. my fault. if you wanna have a beer sometime, thats kool. but i only drink on the weekends. i will try not to post when i am drinking anymore, but i am not making any promises.

[BrettM]

This basically all comes down to the fact that production sweat shop frames are tried and true, why do you think koxx advertises the fact that the levelboss won the world championships 7 times? because it lets the buyer know that the frame works, and works well. I will agree that you CAN definately get better results from a custom frame, but why risk it? you are paying (often times) more money and (often times) waiting longer for something that you arent certain works all that great, when you could just order something online and have it get to your house in about a week, and you know it will work well.
I could get Petyo to have 30 world championships if I paid the Coust and Vincent and what not to ride them. It might have something to do with the rider.

That also brings up another reason for custom. I am 6 foot 2 and rode a Koxx levelboss for street and trials. There is that dude in the uk or wherever that rides his for almost bmx riding. Vincent is pure trials. Some ride it BIU style. How can a frame designed for just Vincent by Vincent suit all of us? The answer is it doesn't.

You MAY get shitty results from a custom frame so why risk it. But you also CAN get shitty results from buying a production frame as well. Play the what if game all you want.

The only reason I am accepting at this point is you have the money and don't want to wait, and even that I go ok, why not make the next one custom and get on it right now?

[Ryden]

Why the hell do people quote 2 page long posts to say one line in response!!??!

(Referring to first page of thread)

[bylsma]

I could get Petyo to have 30 world championships if I paid the Coust and Vincent and what not to ride them. It might have something to do with the rider.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but doesn't this statement kind of negate your whole argument? The rider has alot more to do with performance than the bike (I know there is good geometry and bad geometry but I don't think anyone is going to claim that any Koxx has bad geo). What you're used to is going to feel best, so why not pick a production frame that you like and ride it and get accustomed to it, when that is in fact cheaper and easier for most people to do. Obviously you love your custom frames and that's great, but alot of people would start tinkering with shit from one frame to the next which would probably hurt them more than help. Also, you're more of a creative, not so much competitive rider right? So you're probably more inclined to try innovative new designs whereas a pure comp rider would most likely want to stick with what's tried and true. It's the same with any sport. The non-competetive scene is alot more prone to trying something different than the comp scene.

[hello?]

if you were a competive rider and you have tried many of the koxx bikes and such i think you would know what kind of geometry would be perfect so you wouldnt have to keep tinkering with shit from one frame to the next.

[BrettM]

Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but doesn't this statement kind of negate your whole argument? The rider has alot more to do with performance than the bike (I know there is good geometry and bad geometry but I don't think anyone is going to claim that any Koxx has bad geo). What you're used to is going to feel best, so why not pick a production frame that you like and ride it and get accustomed to it, when that is in fact cheaper and easier for most people to do. Obviously you love your custom frames and that's great, but alot of people would start tinkering with shit from one frame to the next which would probably hurt them more than help. Also, you're more of a creative, not so much competitive rider right? So you're probably more inclined to try innovative new designs whereas a pure comp rider would most likely want to stick with what's tried and true. It's the same with any sport. The non-competetive scene is alot more prone to trying something different than the comp scene.
My argument is solely towards those that ride a frame that costs more than my custom frame. My argument is why throw money out the window like that for something that isn't 100 percent perfect for you.

Heres a point to try to show you what I mean. Vincent and Vinco. Their bikes are nothing at all alike, but either could do damn well on the others I'm sure. They ride different bikes tho. They prefer different geometries. Yes they could just get used to the same bike, but why?

I wouldn't say I'm not a comp rider, but I wouldn't say I am either. I go to all that I can but don't put any emphasis on doing well. Its not at all why I ride a bike. With that said I don't think you will deny that the Levelboss is a very nice comp orientated bike. My new Peyto is based 100 percent off that. Same wheelbase, shorter chainstays, tiny bit steeper head tube, and the bb height was a bit different. I bet if you blindfolded someone you wouldn't really know it isn't a Levelboss. It is ridiculously close.

Also I think the competitive guys out there used to want to do thing based on what is good for them. Not anymore. You buy whoever's name is on the shit. Trials bought into image hugely. Example. When Koxx very first came out. No one wanted that long bike. No one. John Webster got one and liked it. He decided alright, long is cool, where is the limit? I have a pic of a frame he built that has a wheelbase just as long or longer than this Vinco deal, years before anyone else tried. Competitive guys should be the guys to not be happy. Competitive is supposed to be in product as well. Searching for the best, its a never ending search. Unfortunately it is entirely image based now and very sad.

Just to sum up again. This is only aimed at guys with more expensive frames than mine. Guys who run a v brake adaptor on a xtp or Coust. You. That kind of stuff. Obviously this isn't aimed at the majority of the riders. The custom guys almost got lucky with Jeremy Van as a posterchild. Than he made what I thought was the dumbest move ever by ditching DeSalvo, but that is an entirely different story.

[smudge]

whats up with that "i'm from baltimore" crap? are you threatening me grass hopper? ha ha. :dunno: but yeah, that post was a product of "tui" Typing Under the Influence. my fault. if you wanna have a beer sometime, thats kool. but i only drink on the weekends. i will try not to post when i am drinking anymore, but i am not making any promises.
Certainly not a threat, just letting you know. I actually enjoy these types of disagreements, more so when I'm face to face with someone. I encourage anyone who is well informed to state their opinion, especially when they can back it up logically. What I was suggesting, is that when I finally am able to get up to B-More to ride with Mike, Bruce and everyone else (including you) that I would love for you to express your opinion to me in person, including why you think I'm an elitist post whore. It would be fun. Since I've barely been on my trials bike for the past two years, maybe you could even teach me a thing or two about riding. I'm always up for getting schooled.

Sean

[hello?]

does desalvo make customs, i hear that they do. do they actually make a fully custom bike or is the material and tubing all picked out and you just choose the geometry. i think thats a good idea because then it wouldnt be so difficult to make a frame and maybe more people would go for the custom idea. als, how much is your custom peyto gonna be brett and what would a desalvo cost as well if they make customs?

[BrettM]

does desalvo make customs, i hear that they do. do they actually make a fully custom bike or is the material and tubing all picked out and you just choose the geometry. i think thats a good idea because then it wouldnt be so difficult to make a frame and maybe more people would go for the custom idea. als, how much is your custom peyto gonna be brett and what would a desalvo cost as well if they make customs?
DeSalvo does 100 percent fully custom. They are known for a bunch of shops getting together with Jeremy and some other riders and putting together a standard frame and making a whole whack to sell at a cheaper price.

My Peyto as you see it is a grand cnd shipped and painted every single thing in. To do what I did on my Peyto with the rear disk and shifter I figured through DeSalvo it would have been something like 1800 I was guessing, mostly because of the disk tab, DeSalvo charges way more and mine is a ton more work than a simple one. My new one for a grand I get laser cut dropouts and another cosmetic touch, my crazy disk mount, I got the top tube pierced, and my welds get sanded. (cheaper if you don't get sanded welds, this doesn't apply to DeSalvo.) This isn't my price. I have nothing to do with Peyto, Morley does. I pay exactly what anyone would pay to have this done, so I am unbiased.

For a regular style trials bike from DeSalvo you could have one for a grand US. They are a little more.

[Peace]

they are more custom than playdoh..... (that sounds right to me)
Peace

[goose]

My new Peyto is based 100 percent off that. Same wheelbase, shorter chainstays, tiny bit steeper head tube, and the bb height was a bit different. I bet if you blindfolded someone you wouldn't really know it isn't a Levelboss. It is ridiculously close.
Would the blindfolded rider be able to tell the difference in braking, perhaps?? heh hehh. I'm sure magura's feel different than 203mm avids do, not to mention how different they sound. hehhehehhe. Perhaps blindfolded, earplugged, and haptically challenged would be a more fair test:)

[BrettM]

Would the blindfolded rider be able to tell the difference in braking, perhaps?? heh hehh. I'm sure magura's feel different than 203mm avids do, not to mention how different they sound. hehhehehhe. Perhaps blindfolded, earplugged, and haptically challenged would be a more fair test:)
Haha. Well what I meant was say a dude who rides a levelboss every day, taking their parts and putting them on my frame...with some magical rim brake deal. You couldn't tell I'm sure.

[mikeschiavone]

sean, YOU ELITIST POST WHORE!! hahaha. when was the last time you posted?

brettm, how much did you pay for your peyto? im curious to know if it would cost me the same, relative to tube material. i wouldn't spend $1000 on a mass produced aluminum frame, but who's to say that other's shouldn't? shit, who cares if someone really likes a frame, likes how it rides, and wants to spend 700?

i sell seven's at the shop i work at, so i fully appreciate the quality of a well built AND well designed frame. having said that, i am (or was) perfectly content with riding the hell out of a $400 BT frame.

[morley]

Peyto frames start around $650 american, and they can go up depending on the options you want. Anything from internal cable routing, to canti mounts, magura mounts, chainstay protectors, chainstay disc tabs, the list can go on and on...

Even if you just copy a frames geometry just to ride steel, the benifits of going custom far outweigh the costs of any high end overseas frame. Most builders are really open adn personal regarding communication and answering any questions you have.

[BrettM]

sean, YOU ELITIST POST WHORE!! hahaha. when was the last time you posted?

brettm, how much did you pay for your peyto? im curious to know if it would cost me the same, relative to tube material. i wouldn't spend $1000 on a mass produced aluminum frame, but who's to say that other's shouldn't? shit, who cares if someone really likes a frame, likes how it rides, and wants to spend 700?

i sell seven's at the shop i work at, so i fully appreciate the quality of a well built AND well designed frame. having said that, i am (or was) perfectly content with riding the hell out of a $400 BT frame.
I take it you read very little of my posts. I paid a grand for my frame (mentioned that 3 times in this thread now???). To copy say a Levelboss you will pay less than to buy the real deal. Coust and xtp aren't even close to the same as Peyto. An exact Levelboss copy is 850 cnd. 750 or so US?? I dunno. That is painted and shipping in as well. No paint and no shipping and it starts getting close to regular price frames...But I won't go there.

Believe me I couldn't care any less if someone wants to spend big money on whatever. This is just a rant. Mostly its brought on when people try to justify why they spent the money. Spend the money fine. Don't tell me why it is worth half that even. Thats the basis of the rant.

I have also posted many times that I have absolutely nothing against the dudes riding the BT's or whatever. In fact props to you guys. Some people actually decided it was the best bike for them even tho it doesn't say Koxx on it anywhere.

[KyleT]

Completely off topic, but I need to ask: bmorekirby, are you NSA? Just noticed you're from Fort Meade.

(And yes, I know, if he was he couldn't just post it on a website or tell basically anyone that hadn't been vetted, I just felt like asking) :)

[Peace]

Im going to get a leeson, should cost me round about $1100 AUD and thats using reynolds 725. It may vary though depending on certain variations. I must call them soon, as they arent very good with e-mails.
Custom is very nice, and seeing as most customs are steel... if they break or crack... re weld em! reynolds steel loves it!

Peace

[goose]

My $0.02.

When I need a new frame, I hope to buy a custom peyto. I would buy a moment, but they cost a similar amount to peyto, and don't have any degree of customization, nor are they hand built in canada by a UBC engineering student:). Although it's nice to support Norco, I've already supported them twice. I've also supported brodie, cove bikes, and rocky mountain. So, I wouldn't hesitate at all buying from a local builder.

My only fear is that I when the time comes, can't shell out a grand for a frame, and will have to settle for a ghost or something along those lines, for considerably less.

goose

ps: What's does a pierced tube look like, and what purpose does it serve? I looked for a while, but never could tell a difference from pictures. Seems many BMXs have them.

[morley]

Here is what the peirced seat tube looks like on my bike, basically the seat tube runs through the top tube and you attach the seatstays to the extended top tube. It makes a stiffer and stronger rear end. Bikes with conventional stays tend to break a lot easier from 180's and other rotational moves that put a lot of stress on the rear end.

http://www.biketrials.ca/modules/pnCPG/coppermine/albums/userpics/10001/normal_RIMG0002.JPG

[durkie]

i haven't been riding along to really see the effects of corrosion, but what do you steel riders do about rust? that is my main problem with steel (which most custom frames fall in to). it makes the whole thing feel very high maintenance...that i can't leave my bike out in the rain, i have to use framesaver on the inside, or that i have to go bandage my frame with electrical tape or boeshield if i scratch the paint.

[BrettM]

Morley has more scratches on his bike in a week than anyone will get in a life time. Rust isn't even an issue. Whatever you might get would just be surface. You could leave your bike outside in the rain for 10 years and stilll be fine to ride it. Its not an option. Paul does use framesaver on the inside and the powdercoat is very hard to scratch down to bare metal.

As for shelling out for a Peyto you get a bit of a break for one as well. 500 up front, the rest is due before it is sent to you.

[digby]

whats the diff between true temper ox, reynolds 853, dedacci?

[BrettM]

whats the diff between true temper ox, reynolds 853, dedacci?
True temper ox is the cheapest and heaviest as it is least butted. 853 is a little lighter and more butted. It also claims to be stronger as it gains strength from a weld. Dedaciai is something you probably don't want on a trials bike, probably not even on a xc bike. Road bike use.

I can't speak for all builders but if you explain what you want to use it for, show them a video and what not they can help you decide tube set. It is really quite easy.

[hello?]

whats the advantage of steel compared to aluminum?

[BrettM]

There are tons. Some peoples cons of steel are others pros. Some pros of aluminium are cons for steel lovers.

[hello?]

for uci style comp riding long wheelbase bike what would be the pros and cons of steel?

[BrettM]

for uci style comp riding long wheelbase bike what would be the pros and cons of steel?
Depends. Some people like really stiff frames, others don't. Aluminum at the same weight as steel will be stiffer. Personally I think steel done the way it is on my frame is plenty stiff enough and has an addicting give to it. You don't notice it until its under real pressure. Almost like losing a psi or two in your tires, but without taking air out. Its not even that much. Most probably won't notice a real difference, and if they do, only for a ride.

I don't think the stiffness argument is the greatest. The low psi in the tires kinda screws it.

Pros of steel is I believe its a lot stronger. The whole fatigue thing doesn't really exist like it does with aluminum. Its kinda the reason why most custom builders won't touch aluminum. It's a risky material. You can also re-weld steel. If need be you can strip paint and take a tube out and add a good one back in or just touch up a weld or whatever.

[Elan]

to make a steel frame nearly as light as an aluminum frame of thesame exact dimensions, you sacrifice resilience and such. plus, you cant have cool cnc parts

[BrettM]

to make a steel frame nearly as light as an aluminum frame of thesame exact dimensions, you sacrifice resilience and such. plus, you cant have cool cnc parts

Not necessarily. My blue and white Peyto is under 4 pounds with no paint. I've had heavier aluminum frames break on me. It's mostly stiffness. It is quite easy to knock off say a Levelboss with the same weight or less. It can take a downtube hit or whatever about the same.

Your argument is basically for xc stuff. Sub 3.5 pounds.

You can't have cool cnc parts, but you can have a bunch of cool laser cut parts. You can have cnc...but it makes no sense at all.

[Elan]

i would ride a custom steel frame if i designed it and it was sub-$600, until then, ill stick to my xtp

[digby]

which youre selling and havent built up yet?

[hello?]

which youre selling and havent built up yet?
your selling your bike which you havent even built up? are you quitting trials or getting a new bike?

[Elan]

which youre selling and havent built up yet?
i just got an amazing deal on a new car, so instead of selling everything i have for money just to afford the car, im just searching for everything i can buy to add to it.

so no, i keeping the xtp methinks. it should be complete by this time next week. :greddy:

[digby]

I just got some fresh azenies for my wrx. Its nice to be able to drive like a complete maniac again. I was on bald yoko's before that would break traction at the slightest hint of a weight shift. not so much fun when its wet out and youre trying to make it to work on time.

[Elan]

i definately didnt get a wrx, but i got a car thats worth $24k

[hello?]

post pics of your xtp when you get it built up.

[smudge]

Completely off topic, but I need to ask: bmorekirby, are you NSA? Just noticed you're from Fort Meade.

(And yes, I know, if he was he couldn't just post it on a website or tell basically anyone that hadn't been vetted, I just felt like asking) :)
Have you ever read any of his other posts?

[smudge]

sean, YOU ELITIST POST WHORE!! hahaha. when was the last time you posted?
I'm a total post whore...it has given me a new purpose in life. At my current rate, I estimate that I'll have 1000 posts by January 2008. I hope this site is still around by then, otherwise my reason for living would be gone.

[afrobot]

The OX is super hardened and cannot be shaped, The reynolds 853/531 etc are just different alloys and buttings available ,dedacai is just another mfg from Ital.

Sorry no pics yet ...It rides great aside from trying to find the perfect stem.

Soon kids...very soon....

[hello?]

oh btw what are cnc parts? what do they look like?

[tomacropod]

CNC stands for Crustacea-Nano-Crystallisation. Basically CNCd parts are just normal tubing or weave, but injected with the crystallised remains of millions and millions of ancient sea creatures. Similar to what sand and sandstone are formed from, millenia of hydro-pressure forms a very rigid and strong structure. CNCd parts have the liquified remains injected in and then a centrifuge is used to re-align the delicate crystal structure so that in the end you get a very very stiff, strong, and not much heavier, piece of metal.

It's a very interesting process.

- Joel

[AndyT]

They are usually blue, and come with special sparkle stuff inside- pretty tricked out shit.

[AndyT]

Damnit tomac you posted a millisecond before mine.

[tomacropod]

:-) I thought I'd have to get in quick on that one.

- Joel

[goose]

CNC is computer numerical control, and it essentially involves you entering dimensions into a computer and a robot makes a part for you based on those dimensions. You can make very intricate parts with a CNC milling machine. More intricate than if you were to do it by hand (unless you're really good:))

I'm no expert, though, I no longer work as a mechanical engineer.

[Sneaker]

He. Im taking a copy of python. Ill take it with bash plate. Cos i like geometry of that frame but i want a fuckin bash plate. Get stickers and it will be like a custom bike.

[tomacropod]

CNC is computer numerical control, and it essentially involves you entering dimensions into a computer and a robot makes a part for you based on those dimensions. You can make very intricate parts with a CNC milling machine. More intricate than if you were to do it by hand (unless you're really good:))

I'm no expert, though, I no longer work as a mechanical engineer.
I know, a trialsin mate of mine has just been promoted to sole operator of a CNC mill and CNC lathe. He makes cool stuff for a 2nd year apprentice :-)

- Joel

[goose]

I know, a trialsin mate of mine has just been promoted to sole operator of a CNC mill and CNC lathe. He makes cool stuff for a 2nd year apprentice :-)

- Joel see if he can get stuff made for us:)