Brakes

Discussion in 'Observed Trials Discussion' started by Little Android Man, Dec 9, 2003.

  1. Little Android Man

    Little Android Man Free Cup!

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    I am soon buying a PX New Jack Flash for mostly urban/trials riding, but I want to know what brakes would be better for New England type weather (rain/wet often, cold, etc) Currently Im using LX V's with tar and it works ok, but Im looking at the Avid Juicy 7 hydros, or would a pair of HS-33's be better? Whats the best choice?
     
  2. OTAdmin

    OTAdmin Got more product than Ron Popeil Staff Member

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    Well, a disc in the front would definitely be the best for rainy weather. An HS33 or V brake with a grind on the rim (no tar) and plazmatic CRV/M pads, or koxx bloxx (I LOVE mine in the dry, but haven't tried them in the wet yet) would be a good choice for the rear.
     

  3. MikeTheBike

    MikeTheBike Active Member

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    You know, it constantly amazes me that so many people are against using a disc brake on the rear of their bikes. I know some people have tried them but it sure seems like there are a lot more people talking bad about them than have actually tried them. Just so you know, I've run 2001 Magura Louise with standard black pads on both front and rear of my past three bikes (2001 Megamo 26 Pro, 2002 Echo ES2 and 2003 Echo ES4). I'll NEVER go back to rim brakes. I can ride wet or dry, hot or cold and never have to fiddle with tar or grinding anymore.

    I would bet that most people who have tried a disc brake on the rear just didn't get it setup right. I'm not questioning their competance or anything, it's just that a rear disc brake requires quite a bit more finesse than a front.

    The biggest problem is that most frames don't have the disc tabs perfectly aligned. We all know how finicky rim brakes can be about pad alignment. Well, disc brakes seem about 10 times more sensitive. At first, I was able to get by decently well with some creative work with the 0.2mm spacers. But, once I finally got the disc tabs evened out using a Hope Spot Facing Tool, my rear brake has improved immensely. You cannot imagine how much better a rear disc brake works once it is aligned properly.

    The second thing is bleeding. Since disc brakes work at a much higher pressure than hydraulic rim brakes, they are much more sensitive to air in the lines. Even bubbles only the size of the tip of a sharpened pencil have a noticeable effect. I've recently got my hands on the new blue "Royal" blood from Magura. It seems to be just the slightest bit less viscous than the green and so air bubble can escape faster.

    Before you even start thinking about bleeding, take out your fluid and leave the bottle sitting still for about 20-30 minutes to let the bubbles generated by movement rise out. When you are ready to begin the bleeding, try to be very careful not to jostle the fluid around, creating new bubbles. Follow the normal bottom-up bleeding procedure outlined in your manual.

    After you have filled and drained the master reservoir 2-3 times, push enough fluid into the reservoir so that it just barely starts to overflow the edge. This is VERY important! Any space left between the top of the fluid and cap will cause the brakes to feel spongy and reduce the pad travel.

    Lastly, before removing the syringe, push on the syringe plunger and work the brake lever back and forth to move fluid in and out of the system. Take careful notice to see if any bubbles come into the syringe line and make sure to get them out of the brake system.

    For those few of you out there that are running a rear disc brake, try these steps and write back here to tell everyone your results. I suspect you will be amazed how much your brakes will improve.
     
  4. RomanC

    RomanC Well-Known Member

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    This is all great and stuff, but your forgot a major point. Most frames snap after using a disc for a while. :eek: If you get a frame that is disc capable you are choices are pretty damn poor. Echo to my knowledge does not support disc brakes anymore. PX is the same way. So you real choices are Megamo and Brisa. Also not everybody likes the way the disc locks, and by that I mean the springy sensation you get when the hub stops causing the spokes to flex a bit.

    I wouldn't mind to have a disc setup but that would require a custom frame as I don't like Megamo or Brisa. Brett should mass produce his custom frame and sell it cheap to us :)
     
  5. AndyT

    AndyT New Member

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    Hey mike ever think there is a reason why all the top riders DON'T run a rear disc?
     
  6. Little Android Man

    Little Android Man Free Cup!

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    Would HS33's work better than a V brake and a tarred rim in the wet though? My friend has a pair and just in light rain he slipped and my brakes held even without the tar..
     
  7. AndyT

    AndyT New Member

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    hahahahaha


    Tell you're friend hes a fool for using tar in the wet. I look down upon tar usage... tar = oil in the wet.

    vee/hs33 + grind + soft pads = no slip, EVER.
     
  8. Fast Fashion

    Fast Fashion Youth in Asia?

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    i'd use a disc in the rear, but i'm afraid of my frame breaking.
     
  9. afrobot

    afrobot Aluminum is for recycling

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    Even if yer frame holds up long term fatigue on spokes in addition to bending rotors,for the less skilled may be an issue.
     
  10. RomanC

    RomanC Well-Known Member

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    heh those tiny bike rotors cost almost as much as my OEM-like-spec brembo rotors for my car. sad sad sad
     
  11. AndyT

    AndyT New Member

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    brembos for my car (front) are 220 a piece. WTF kind of rotors are you buyign!?
     
  12. OTAdmin

    OTAdmin Got more product than Ron Popeil Staff Member

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    V brake would probably have more power compared to an HS33, unless you put on an RB lever, at that point the difference is negligible. Andrew was right when he said Tar'd rim in the wet = death. The reason your brake worked better than your friends even without the tar was because you didn't have tar on. Tar will hinder braking performance in the wet. Everything rim-brake sucks in the wet compared to a ground rim and nice pads (plaz or koxx bloxx like I mentioned before).
     
  13. Little Android Man

    Little Android Man Free Cup!

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    What I meant was neither of us had tar on our rims and his Maguras still slid. What are the advantages of HS33's over a good set of V's?
     
  14. AndyT

    AndyT New Member

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    HS-33's have to be set up PERFECTLY. 90% of magura riders have NO FUCKING CLUE what this means. They will work like shit unless they are set up totally mint, this leads to many idiots calling them "poo". Advantages of hs33s, once they are set up SHOULD be- not having to touch them for many, many months- much more solid lever feel (personal preference). I've run xtr vee, xt vee, two or three dif. avid vees, countless maggies, hayes 99, hayes mag, magura louise, magura gustav/marta sexorcombo, avid mechanical disc...all of them have their advantages and disadvantages.
     
  15. OTAdmin

    OTAdmin Got more product than Ron Popeil Staff Member

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    Advantage of an HS33 over a V is WAY better lever feel, VERY smooth action, and I think they modulate better... though that wouldn't effect my decisions in the slightest. Andrew is right though, they have to be mounted perfectly parallel to the rim with a good bleed or they work very poorly. Vs are pretty stupid proof, they're cheap, and they are powerful. Only thing I can't get past is the lever feel, I just wanna throw up after I ride a cable brake, they disgust me. That being said, if you have a 2 bolt frame, you should probably just ride Vs, the magura mount for 2 bolts SUCKS. A Magura's lever feel is so firm and the power better when you mount them on a 4 bolt frame.
     
  16. smudge

    smudge Central Scrrrrrrrutinizer

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    Lever feel is so subjective...there are certain advantages to a hard or soft feel. I generally prefer the harder feel of Magura's or my Hope discs, but the Magura's tend to be too blocky for me. I end up with tendonitis if I ride often. I'd rather have a soft feel and be able to ride. I'm looking forward to running my Maggie with the RB lever again. I completely agree with Andrew about the need to set up an HS-33 PERFECTLY in order to get it to work optimally. It's compounded when you use an RB lever because the pads need to sit closer to the rim to account for the reduced slave piston travel, and further compounded if you use a soft pad (like the plaz) which squishes and flexes when the brakes are applied.

    Some time in the not too distant future, I'll be selling a new Plazmatic pad with an Alu backing that solves (what I feel) the problems of plastic backed pads (flex) AND solves the problems associated with the first generation Magura compatible Al backed pads that were made by Threshold. The disadvantage is that they need to be set up absolutely perfectly to get them to feel right. We'll also be producing a new hydraulic rim brake with some features that I think everyone will like. I promise that at least one aspect of Magura setup will be solved AND with loads more power.
     
  17. RomanC

    RomanC Well-Known Member

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    AndrewT: In my post I said that I got the OEM-spec brakes. Meaning that they are plain vanilla vented solid rotors which are just made by Brembo. Cross-drilled, slotted ones cost a ton more. I got two for $49 each at an online parts store.
     
  18. Elan

    Elan steve french

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    i think maguras are "poo" :joshers:

    but i havent taken the time to set them up, because my avid V's work A+++ always
     
  19. WhiteRavenKS

    WhiteRavenKS Well-Known Member

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    word to the turd. i hate my maggies because my avids kick more ass with less than half the set up time and less hassel. my maggies are set up right. they just arent as good to me. they leak too. i dont even remember the last time my cable sprung a leak and had to get warrantied.
     
  20. Fast Fashion

    Fast Fashion Youth in Asia?

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    yeah, the oem spec ones are not too pricey. although standard DBA rotors for my car(not X-drilled or dslotted) are around $180 for a front pair... the x-drilled DBA's i have are a lot more, and i wouldn't have them if i wasn't friends with the head tech at my dealership.